what does everyone use in there HD shotgun?

The point of slugs is to increase your range. I use them when hunting deer. But I won't have a 25 yard shoot inside my home.
 
Federal 00, 3.5 inch 10 gauge

Maybe its overkill. But my main HD shotgun is a Spanish SxS, in the aforementioned 3.5 in 10. In the bedroom is a Remington SP-10 with the barrel snipped to 21 inches. I have a Browning BPS in the 10 but haven't found a use as far as HD goes. In other parts of the house I do have a more "normal" choice, a Mossberg 500 PGO and she gets fed 00 Federal 3 inchers in 12 gauge.
 
It just seems that shooting slugs thru a shotgun kinda defeats the purpose of using a shotgun. Why not a hand gun or a rifle, or a bazooka.


I thought the whole idea behind HD shotguns was, there cheap and easy to use, and the errant shot won't kill the neighbor kid.

For up close work even #8 bird shot is going to ruin some ones day.
 
Slugs defeat the purpose of a shot gun?! On the contrary. The Purpose of MY shotgun is DESTROYING the threat! And it fills its purpose quite well. Yes, I understand the "name" of the gun is SHOTgun and a slug is not; but... details details. If I was bird shooting I'd use "shot."

"Why not a hand gun or a rifle, or a bazooka?"

Because my slugs are 438gr and MUCH larger than .50cal <--- ME THINKS THAT MATTERS. I'm assuming the bazooka question wasn't serious. But if you must know... My house isn't large enough for me to be out of "danger close" range of the explosion.

Hand guns are 'portable' made for public carry. Puny... The smallest, least leathal option of all. Good for their "purpose" but not home defense.
Rifles are very long and made for long range. (AR types excluded) But being a Marine I know their limitations in leathality ESPECIALLY in comparison with a HV slug at close range.
Remington 870 Express Magnum HD is made for blasting 2 legged vermin at close range. Why do i need "shot" at close range???! It doesnt penatrate body armor! Those pellets are smaller than .38 rounds! Do any of you use a .38 for HD? Crazy! Ya might wanna ask Santa for a second firearm.

If I hear 'over penatration' one more time I'm gonna hurl. It's BS. The fbi did a study and found that ALL shotgun loads OVERPENATRATE common house hold walls. Even birdshot and the only thing that stops these projectiles are the electrical boxes/switches. Not to mention, the study they did about how many...or i should say, how 'few' rounds fired by fbi agents in a fire fight hit their target. It was something astonishing like 2 rounds for every 10. So... over penatration was found to be much less a concern than stray rounds. And your advocating "SHOT" from a "SCATER GUN!!!?"
I for one don't fire until my rear sight is aligned with my front and my target. "5th safety rule" know what lies BEYOND your target. Anybody who would point any gun in the general direction of their little childen/wife and fire away (in the dark) thinking it's "ok" because they have birdshot or 00 get NO respect from me. None. If thats the only shot I have I'm not taking it. Thats where your tactics and training come in hand.
I'm in no way saying that 00, or 000/0000 isnt leathal. .22's are lethal but none of you rely on that to defend those who rely on you. What I'm saying is that nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing is more lethal than 12g slugs. (avaible to civilains) And the one rare time you can use that leathal firepower IS IN YOUR HOME for SD. Why are so many men insistant on smaller stuff?
To be honest I'm not quite sure how slugs get around the cap law at .50 for rifles but they certainly are larger and much closer to bullets than shot. I mean it's obvious they ARE bullets. I havent had the pleasure of using one on a 2 legged critter but boy is it gonna be grusome! Do Not Threaten My Life/Liberty While I Sleep! I take it personal. We're not talking punching holes, we're talking shape altering. I assume 100% of the time all perps are Grizzly Bears and need to be handled with apropiate ammo. I would not use 00 on a Grizzly. So why would I use it on an armed man with the intent to harm me? In my mind I feel it would be a MORE IMMEDIATE threat stop. When fractions of a second count to such a large degree of life and death. Why take your ammo choice so lightly? Yes, I'm aware slugs are overkill, thats the point!
 
killoften, I suspect you'd get every bit as much lethality if not more out of 00 or 000 buck as one of those slugs. Why? Simple: You're firing the same amount of lead down-range, but the buckshot spreads out the point of impact, and dumps it's energy into the target faster. A slug would probably go completely through a person, and any energy left in it at that point is wasted.

And family isn't the only reason to worry about your backstop: stray shots going into your house electrical wires can spark a fire. Or you could hit a gas line, or a water pipe, etcetera, etcetera.
 
There is no way that someone can be shot in the head with buckshot at that distance and survive unless they're wearing a steel helmet. I don't know the circumstances or what happened there, but that in no way reflects the real world performance of buckshot.

I'll repeat: at home defense distances, any kind of shell is going to be devastating. The shot size doesn't matter much when you're putting a hole clear through your target.
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?? The Gazette Telegraph of Colorado Springs printed the photo and the story explained that the officer shot the man with 00 Buckshot. It showed a pic in one story that showed the officer cruiser and the suspects truck where the shot took place. I lived <1/2 mile from where the incident took place so meandered up to take a look and paced it off etc...

I'm not asking you to believe it! I'm explaining why I do not have much confidence in buckshot anymore!! If you are that interested in it, research it. The incident took place April 17th 1993 and the following week or so of editions printed photos and the story. The perps name was Eugene Baylis.

15 to 20 yards may NOT represent most HD situations! I concur that up closer the effects of buckshot may be more damaging! I on the other hand, meaning only myself want a little more versatile ammo and ranges possible with my chosen ammo so have chosen to go with slugs moreso than any buckshot. You may go with whatever makes you feel comfortable! Ok?
:)
 
Wooh, Here we go with the "energy dump thing" again/ :(
ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy! :rolleyes: Each light projectile is on it's own and "sharing" all the same powder. I'm just gonna come out and say it. There quite honestly is NO DEBATE on the fact slugs are more lethal than shot. Please sombody step in here. :confused: If ANYTHING a nay-sayer would want to argu against slugs it's the whole over penatration thing, or not being as guerented to hit the target as much as a spreading lot. Etc, Etc. And even the other thing you mentiond like hitting the pipes in my walls. lol (I'll get to that in a sec.) Not that slugs are less leathal upon impact. :eek:I never saw that one commin.
Slugs are soft, very soft, and although they absolutly proably will travel completly through. Them slugs are gonna be extremly deformed and pushing all kinds of hydrostatic presure out the back. That extra energy is fine with me, she's done her job. And needed to make the exit wound (which is a large large bleeding "shape changing" hole you can put a phone book in.
Ever seen a video of a slug hitting a block of balistic gel? The energy finds it way all over the block! ahahah jumps up off the table. When you see a comparison on 00 it's quite a bore in comparison. And for the record somebody mentioned earlier about traveling through a person and then into another room or house. I'm sure upon exit the lead is still several hundred fps give or take a few hundred fps :p But very deform'd/flat and not going to travel well through other barriers. And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation. No more risk than any person (scared) shooting pistol rounds or shot, possibly only hitting small targets like a biecep and passing right through or missing complelty. It is what it is. That's why that 5th un-written rule needs to be written.

And ADB, no disrespect. I don't mean to single you out but as for the damage I do to my house wiring, or plumbing... ??? I don't know, I don't think that's something I should concider when concerned with defending my life by ending another. I could not care less about those things. In the 1:1,000,000 chance I start a fire, the police should be arriving shortly and it's not exactly like i'll be heading back off to bed anyway. :D
 
For now, I prefer using Federal LE Low-Recoil 00 Buck (9 pellet). I consider this to be a very controllable and reliable load which is capable of exceptionally tight patterns; works for me.

Given my present location, I generally avoid using slugs for HD duty.

And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation.
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Not that Im obsessed with overpenetration, but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no? Such damage may be a part of warfare, but for HD...well, this could land one in jail quite quickly (assuming the "collateral damage" is an innocent bystander).

You are right in that "collateral damage" can happen regardless of the load used, but lessening the odds is not a bad thing. Anyway, given the close quarters usually involved in an HD encounter, is a slug really necessary vs. say, 00 Buck?

Now, Im not sure of the exact numbers, but from what I gather the overall velocity/range of slugs vs. 00 Buck renders the use of slugs (for HD) as just too dangerous for most urban environments. In regards to rural use, the slug might be more acceptable based on certain criteria.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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I agree with Killoften, well said.

but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no?
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I don't think so. We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details. Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.;)

There's priorities if something goes wrong at home. First things first!
 
We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details.
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Agreed...the possibility of collateral damage, if speaking of human life, (and doing what one can to minimize such damage, while still remaining "prepared" vs. maybe saying "oh well, it is what it is") being one of those "details."

Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.
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Again, agreed. Keep in mind, I was simply referencing one statement made by this individual....not making an "all out" assessment of his overall motives/reasoning as pertaining to HD. ;)

Now, if by "collateral damage" he was referring to structural/property damage rather than the accidental harming/death of an innocent individual, then I agree with his statement 100%. Property means nothing when defending ones life or the lives of loved ones.

My apologies (in retrospect) if I misinterpreted this individuals statement. However, if his intention was to include innocent life within the category of "collateral damage," I must then stand by my original statement. Fair enough?
 
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Had a friend up from Georgia last weekend and we had pretty much the same conversation so we did my little demonstration I use for my gun safety classes. Taking into account not many shots in most houses are going to exceed 24' and 10' is more likely I had him fire 3 shells out of my 20 gauge. All 2 3/4" #4 shot. At 25 yards it pretty much covered the 9"x11" sheet of paper with my 50' pistol bullseye target on it and the shot was centered in the bull. At 35' there were a few shots scattered but most of them were in a hole about 1 3/4" in diameter, at 10' there was a 1" diameter hole blown through a 2"x4".

People aren't paper, or milk jugs full of water or liter bottles of ice but they are flesh and blood and every shoot is different but at my arbitrary distance of 24' my shot cup is just falling away from the shot string. Those little pellets may not blow his head off but it will sure enough ruin his day.

I do not want to see any more body bags but if an intruder gets in my house and threatens my family he is going to be unwell even if I accidentally shoot him with #6 or 7 1/2 shot but #4 was bought specifically for turkey hunting and home defense. I shoot it a lot and have confidence in it. I didn't necessarily convince my buddy to give up his 3" 12 gauge but he understands my point of view now. There are other people in my house besides me and I don't want buck or slugs going through a wall into their bedrooms after going through a boogerman and #4 makes me confident that won't happen.
 
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Now we got good debate!

Gents,
Real quick here, glad to see this thread pickin up. :D

Let me clarify, I might have been on a "roll" and worded myself a little cavilier ;)
By "colateral damage" I meant ANYTHING the round strikes beyond my target. Definition ain't it?
Good God! I wouldn't want for a second to harm any peacful American. ESPECIALLY a neighbor of mine and quite possibly a child sleeping. Nothing could be more unthinkable. But yes, with the discharge of a firearm, ANYWHERE not on a "range" it's a posability. For ALL of us. And that is somethin we all need to think seriously about. I'm not goin down in this thread bein the guy that endangers his strangers without a care or second thought.
It is my 'edacated assumtion' that the risk is low, and for reasons I've coverd pretty exstensivly. Therefore, I refuse to choose a less effective weapon for my and my familys right to life. Espcecially since all those other "less effective" options make pretty efective, "people sleeping in their bed killers."
Man, that sounds bad, I can't believe I just typed that. lol But all kiding aside, it's true! And for reasons I've coverd exstensivly.
If it makes you feel any better I believe using a pump action, sholder fired weapon, with a high recoil and limited rounds, keeps me focused on making each shot count. (especially having to mannualy pump each round) And even under duress I'm not just "spraying and praying"
Which is more than can be said for a lot of people rockin high capacity AR's with 30rd mags, or scared men squeezing on a pistol. Not to say that's how all people respond but... you know, you know.

I was just using that military word (colateral damge) becuase it IS something we take seriously. Especialy with exploding rounds, or multiple burts of .50cal ammunition. And that's to protect other nations peacful inhabatants!

All an all, no offence takin. Enjoy the read guys.:D

P.S. Somebody PLEASE tell me how to "Quote:" replys???!!!!:confused:
 
OO Buckshot is way, way overkill. There is no need at all to go with such large shot.

It is much better and more effective to use smaller shot that gives you many more hits on the target. The trauma produced will be far greater, and your odds of hitting vital areas much higher.

I used to have Federal Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated BB shot in my gun. And that load is still available on the market for anyone to use. However, I have since replaced that with Federal's Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated #4 Buckshot. I still have over 100 rounds of that left, and it is what is in my gun now.

Federal sadly decided last year to take this load off the commercial market, so it unfortunately is now extremely difficult for civilians to get hold of. It is now only being sold to Law Enforcement as part of their LE product lineup, having been deemed too deadly to continue to sell to the general public.

I was lucky to grab a bunch of boxes from the final commercial inventory I could locate. It fires 34 .24 caliber copper plated #4 buckshot at 1,250 fps, and is absolutely devastating in its impact.

With 8 +1 shells in my shotgun, that is a heck of a lot of firepower. 9 x 34 = 306 buckshot


DSC_0131a_on_filtered.jpg




My Magnum BB load I used to have in my shotgun has 72 .18 caliber copper plated BB's in it. Multiple that by 9, and you get 648 projectiles!!

Federal still has commercial civilian #4 Buckshot loads available. The only difference is that the buckshot is plain lead, and is not copper plated. You can get 2/34 inch 12 gauge shells with either 27 #4 Buckshot going 1,325 fps, or a magnum version with 34 #4 Buckshot at 1.250 fps, which is identical ballistics to this Premium load I have.

Here is the Federal ammo web page for info on their civilian #4 Buckshot loads:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx


And here is a web page on Federal's Law Enforcement website with info about this Premium load that I have in my shotgun:

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/fedprembcksht.aspx



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ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy!
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Actually, at home defense ranges birdshot will pretty much turn your target into sausage. Smaller projectiles lose speed faster than larger ones, but over the short distances you'd be talking about in home defense, that's not much of a factor.

ANY kind of shell coming out of a 12 gauge, at under 20 feet, is going to be fatal and it's probably going to be fatal in a really spectacular way. The only question is range to target and penetration. It doesn't matter if you're ten feet away versus twenty, or whether the target is wearing a thick coat.

Slugs will penetrate ballistic gelatin to a depth of up to 35 inches, which is far in excess of what's necessary. Think about the depth of somebody's chest.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your preference, I'm simply saying that in terms of taking out a target, it certainly shouldn't be considered necessary to use slugs for home defense.
 
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