well shucks

Neither Obama nor Klinton has ever done anything worth mentioning. Obama voted "present" 132 times in the IL legislature, for fear of making decisions. Klinton is one of the coarsest, most corrupt individuals on the national political scene in my long lifetime.
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*Clinton
 
Enabling in addiction is the behavior of family and friends that allow an addict or alcoholic to continue to use alcohol or drugs without having to face the true consequences of thier usage. I.E. The spouse that provides excuses and alibis to an employer so that the addicted spouse or alcoholic won't lose their job or the spouse that makes excuses to the kids that yes daddy or mommy really does love you but they can't be here because of "insert lie/excuse here" and not because they are too drunk or high to care or remember. The tragedy is the family working so hard to stay together, to hold on financially, to buffer the kids from the harsh reality of mom or dad' s addiction and yet in the end all it does is allow the problem to get worse, because the real problem is never addressed and the net effect of such behavior is to buffer the alcoholic or addict from the consequences of his choices. For sanity to return that means it is necessary to confront the elephant in the middle of the room, the addiction, to no longer make excuses and to hold people accountable for their behavior and choices.

It is time to stop the enabling with the faux conservative republican party. To continue to support candidates who do not support the same "core values" as you hold is enabling and it is folly for it just ensures that your support can be taken for granted. I can get drunk or stoned as much as I want because you will always be there to bail my sorry butt out with your vote, cause you have nowhere else to go and you are too afraid of what might happen otherwise.

There is a crucial difference between choosing to support a candidate who differs on some policy issues from you and one who differs from you in core values. Reagan and McCain differ on core values - can you imagine a candidate in this election expressing the sentiment that Reagan expressed when he said, "Government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem." Hmmmmm, what candidate this election cycle does that most sound like, oh yeah that nutbag Ron Paul.

Choosing between Pot head Clinton, Alcoholic McCain, and Crackhead Obama is like choosing between which addict you want running the country - they're all addicts - their drug of choice nor what stage of their addiction they are in doesn't make a significant difference. They are all heading towards the same cliff. Real change will only happen when individuals begin to hold true to their core values and say enough is enough, no more.

Now some may disagree, they may see McCain and the republicans as a different horse altogether, a horse that isn't headed in the wrong direction and one that still that agrees with their basic core values.

That is the fundamental difference here - I and my ilk see a need for a real change in direction and a change in kind - others still hope that an adjustment here and an adjustment there will eventually lead to a gradual change in course because they believe that they share a basic set of values wiith McCain and the republicans. In the end maybe we will be better served by not taking each others inventory and instead just agree to disagree.
 
I respect your opinion Mack, but here's why I disagree; the government is not my family. My experience is that more often than not I vote for the candidate who I think will do the least amount of damage. And this time around that guy is McCain.
 
fiddletown said:
I don't care what your reasons are for supporting Obama (Hillary). That's simply the end results of your actions, no matter how you want to spin it.
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Nice "fluffy" strawman you've set up there!
miboso said:
And let us not forget, for some states it doesn't matter whom a few people vote for.
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Idaho will go for whomever the Republican nominee might be, regardless of my vote.
Mainah said:
fiddletown said:
mack59 said:
It is time to stop the enabling with the faux conservative republican party.
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Sorry mack, I'll not enable you in your misguided and unrealistic notions.
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My experience is that more often than not I vote for the candidate who I think will do the least amount of damage. And this time around that guy is McCain.
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Sane people understand that if you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got.

The insane will keep trying the same things over and over, each time expecting the current results to be different than the previous results.

This is the state I believe we are currently in, as regards the two political parties. I would think it to be obvious to anyone, that regardless of the differences in their platforms, the reality is that there is no real difference in what they are doing to this country and where they are going to take this country.
 
Marko Kloos said:
Truthfully? I'd rather see some hyper-liberal idealist in the White House who'll re-energize Republican opposition to big Government and cause gridlock in the process, than some wishy-washy Centrist who will make the conservatives continue their pork-induced coma for another four or eight years, where they can only be bothered to lift their heads out of the trough long enough to rubber-stamp some more of the kind of nonsense they've been rubber-stamping since 2001.
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Hear, Hear.

I personally worked long and hard to help the Republicans win control of congress in 1994, my own time, my own money. My mantra was just give the Reps a chance and you'll see a change in Washington. We've seen a change alright even bigger spending than the Dems.

Next time some of you are railing against Hilbama's 'socialized medicine' plans think about Bush's Perscription Drugs for Seinors bill that my end up costing $1.2 Trillon over the next ten years.

How about a $1 Trillion dollar needless war of choice in Iraq, this year the biggest federal budget ever topping $3 Trillion dollars.

Now your crying that the sky is falling if we don't vote for McCain a Dem might get in the White House and they'll start new federal programs.:eek:

PBP said:
I just get tired of this whole "if you ain't voten for us...then yer voten agin us" mentality.
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Remember what Dirty Harry told the rouge cops in Magnum Force when they told him your either with us or against us. 'I'm afraid you've misjudged me'
 
Social security benefits used to be tax free. I believe it was Reagan who began taxing benefits. It was very smooth though, described as not a tax hike but a rather a reduction in entitlements
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That was during William Jefferson Clinton's term in office.......

The 1993 Omnibus Reconciliation Act (OBRA 1993) requires senior citizens who earn more than $34,000 (singles) or $44,000 (couples) to pay income taxes on a portion of their Social Security benefits. The work earnings cap for retirees was removed ($11,500@year) and Social Security benefits are now taxed up to 85%, based on total earnings. :mad:
 
The 1993 Omnibus Reconciliation Act (OBRA 1993) requires senior citizens who earn more than $34,000 (singles) or $44,000 (couples) to pay income taxes on a portion of their Social Security benefits. The work earnings cap for retirees was removed ($11,500@year) and Social Security benefits are now taxed up to 85%, based on total earnings.
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I have never heard of this and I am only 24, but that p!$$e$ me off. I don't see the problem with a flat tax, and SS, first off I question that we even need it, 2nd, if you have it and it already was a tax, how can you tax it again? What sense does that make? My 2 cents....:o
 
Back and forth, again and again

Since we are all here on a gun board, and the best gun board I know of, why not look at the election as it will likely affect our hobby/livlihood? I already know plenty about the Clintons and their ideas, although not as strong a lesson as some folks in Idaho and Texas got taught.

And I have learned about Obama and McCain, from others, and from their own mouths. And as I see it, no matter which one wins (along with their party), we are going to get shafted. The only question that remains is which one will do it hardest and fastest. The track record of both parties proves that both sides will gladly sacrifice our rights, our money, and even our blood for their social agendas.

When it comes to our gun rights, it is simply a question of which side will work harder to take them away from us. Look at the leading proponents of gun control in all forms, and the majority of the politicians who advocate gun restrictions are Democrats. Many Republicans do go along with them, some even do their bit to introduce anti-gun regulations (it seems to be the popular thing to do in some crowds), but the driving forces currently are nearly all Democrats. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to believe that Democrats would do us worse, and do it faster than Republicans.

Neither side are our friends, both will stab us in the back, given the chance. The only difference I can see is that while the Republicans will let it happen, the Democrats are constantly sharpening their knives.

And the whole "if you vote for XXX your vote is wasted" or "by not voting for YYY you are helping elect ZZZ" is pure emotional tripe. Kind of like being in favor of "reasonable" gun control. In other words, it is a lie.
 
Two elections ago I voted for Nader (sabotage vote, I was hoping he would do progressively better over time and spit the democrats) because the state where I was living (IL) was locked up for Gore.

I could not vote for Bush with a clean conscience, just like this time around I will be unable to vote for McCain or Hilbama with a clean conscience. If you think I wasted my vote, you just don't understand.

If Hilbama is elected it will not be because I voted for whoever else is on the ballot, it will be because the Republicans failed to put up a candidate that I could vote for, even while holding my nose.
 
Now, having said my piece, there is something else that I see, that may change my mind about my vote in November.

In this, as in many other discussions we have had, there is one fact that remains unanswered: We don't yet know how the decision in Heller will affect things.

What we can deduce is that the decision will affect, the politics of Gun, in one way or another.

Please, try to keep this in mind.
 
Wrote this song over the winter for The good Doctor, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh34WRm1DWo the last line or so pretty much sums up how my vote will not be wasted.

Also,
Sane people understand that if you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got.
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I like that. If I put it in a song I'll put Antipitas in the credits. Isn't it funny how blatantly obvious truths simplistically put sometimes seem profound. About 6.3 grains of 231, 125 grain copper coated .355's, small rifle primers, and 9x23 brass always works the same for me.:)

Also, "Ah shucks" isn't correct. Ron Paul has not dropped out
Reports that Ron Paul has quit the Presidential Race remind me of Mark Twain's famous "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated." The Ron Paul Presidential campaign continues, albeit at a different pace.
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Rand Paul March 8, 2008 on todays http://www.ronpaul2008.com
 
I don't think I've seen so many posters (plus administrators) in a free-for-all in a long time. Kind of reminds me of the proverbial circular firing squad.;)
 
Have fun Moderates you will love the McCain/Kennedy bills just as you loved the Bush /Kennedy ones!!

The gang of 14 rides again!!!

Your wish may come true. And when you witness the socialististic programs and new entitlements which come with said "hyper-liberal", I'm sure that you will be happier than a pig in mud.
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You better back off If you think blaming me as a conservatives for noting voting for a RINO/McCain is the reason!!!!!

LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!! I'M not settling and compromising my principles ........

WHILE YOU AND THIS PARTY HAVING BEEN COMPROMISING PRINCIPLES FOR YEARS

hows it working for ya!! (you split the base) good job
 
And I have learned about Obama and McCain, from others, and from their own mouths. And as I see it, no matter which one wins (along with their party), we are going to get shafted.
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That's absurd hogwash. Please, let's deal in reality here. If you want Obama to win and don't care about the individual right to keep and bear arms, just admit it, rather than spouting aburd hogwash about how Obama's views and McCain's views regarding guns are the same.

Obama will support an assault weapons ban. McCain won't.

Obama will support repealing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. McCain won't.

Obama will support a federal law banning CCW. McCain won't.

Obama will support raising taxes on ammunition. McCain won't.

Obama will support banning hollowpoint/soft-point ammunition. McCain won't.

Obama will ignore the NRA. McCain won't.

Obama caters to his base of liberal democrats who hate guns and want to ban them. McCain doesn't.

Alternatively, you can ignore the truth of these facts, and screech about how there is no difference between Obama and McCain. You are wrong. Please stop drinking the kool aid. :rolleyes:
 
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