well shucks

Sophistry: \ˈsä-fə-strē\ ; noun; 1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation (Merriam-Websters online)

A few examples:

[1] See post 102. On what basis is the psychology of addiction comparable to the dynamics of party politics? What empirical data supports that analogy? Without a sound empirical basis it is merely clever but without meaning.

[2] See post 102 again. What is the basis for the contention that not voting for McCain will cause a real change in the direction of the Republican Party? Without some empirical basis for such contention, it may be emotionally satisfying but is otherwise wishful thinking.

[3] See post 107. "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got" is a is a nice sounding truism and the mating call of corporate strategic planning consultants everywhere, but what does it really mean? Taking a different course may change the result, but not every change is good. You may in fact by changing conduct in a certain way promote a less desirable result. And what if your pattern has been to decline to choose when faced with the lesser of two evils?

Putting sophistry aside, it is a fact that if McCain doesn't win, either Obama or Hillary will be the next President. If Obama or Hillary as President is satisfactory to you because you support their policies, that's one thing. If you are willing to see Obama or Hillary in the White House because you somehow believe that it would stimulate an upwelling of conservative values and a reinvention of the Republican Party, that is quite another. I see no reason to believe the latter.
 
If Obama or Hillary as President is satisfactory to you because you support their policies, that's one thing.
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But what if none of the choices is satisfactory to me? I find just as many things wrong with a McCain presidency as with a Hillary presidency or an Obama presidency. Why aren't you suggesting that if I don't vote for Obama or Hillary that I'm helping to put McCain into office?
 
Ron Paul=some nice ideas, poorly executed.

I just feel bad for all the college students that went without beer money to get him to the point of "last also-ran in the 2008 Republican primary and supreme useless figurehead".(personal anecdote about Paul people I met at the straw poll)

Hey, buck up folks, perhaps in four years someone with carisma and the ability to run a credible campaign will expouse the same ideals as Paul.
 
So let me get this straight: You like Paul's message (ideals), but not the messenger. So now you are supporting a messenger you like even though you don't like his message?
Note that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't like McCain's message (ideals).

Yep, that makes sense to me. Imagine how foolish I feel for supporting ideals without regard for the package that they come in.:mad:
 
rh,
Don't feel bad for them. They're proud of what they've done and would do it again in a heartbeat.
/ hang out with the folks you met at the straw poll :D

Oh, and PS: You should be happy all those college students were there at all. This campaign brought in a whole new generation of Republicans. And maybe somebody who was apathetic prior to this who is more "charismatic and credible" will run for the office and do better.
 
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Hey, buck up folks, perhaps in four years someone with carisma and the ability to run a credible campaign will expouse the same ideals as Paul.
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OK, I resisted long enough...

I'm not a fan of Ron Paul. That's no secret. The credibility factor will not be spoken by me at this time. It's been beaten to death enough, so my opinion whether it's credible or not is irrelevant. But, this is some ideas to ponder...

1. Many politicians didn't get elected on their first go at it.
2. No matter the credibility, Paul did actually have some VERY sound ideas on how the country should be ran. Items such as the govt. be ran per the Documents. He stood for our basic freedoms that are being watered down like cheap whiskey at happy-hour.
3. He did make people talk of the valid points he had. This got some people thinking and acting on convictions and core beliefs. I think there's a chance that some of the "back to the basics of govt." might pour over in future election cycles.

As much negative talks of Ron Paul has been obvious, I do believe people can take notice on the issues he has been right on and instill these into primary concerns of the general public in the future.

I'm not trying to defend Ron Paul. I'm just clarifying that there's objective viewpoints that should be taken into account...
 
Oh, I've had an epiphany - I must vote for a candidate who has a viable chance to win the presidency or my vote is wasted and I will bear responsiblity for electing the greater evil.

Okay, given that set of parameters then I must vote for either Obama or Hillary since McCain doesn't have a viable chance to win.

Please, John McCain is Bob Dole 2008. :barf: Seriously, talk to your local congressman or state senator or congressman - look them in the eye when you talk or ask them about the national presidential race - you'll see the same look in their eyes that the passengers on the Titanic had after it hit the iceberg and started to sink. They know what is coming and so do all the political insiders. Come november a landslide is coming and the republicans down the ticket are going to be struggling to save thenselves and not be swept away.

So nope, I will vote for a candidate who actually believes in the values that I believe in at least then my vote will truly mean and stand for something. I will support most of the local republican candidates because my congressman, state senator and congressman actually do reflect my values - but I won't support the top of the ticket and if enough people vote for the bottom of the ticket but not the top, maybe the party will get the message, don't whizz on your base and tell them its raining.
 
Does it really matter who takes the "Helm" of this rudderless ship?

Today the stock market went up, woo hoo all the financial wanks think this is good. I guess that's what happens when they flood the economy with more money. More dollars chasing goods=higher prices. When will the madness end?
 
Yeah, gas went up 30 to 40 cents a gallon in one day today in the Illinois State capital of Springfield. I was down lobbying with my peers on gun control and ccw. Was meeting with a state senator sympathetic to the 2nd amendment and our concerns - everything was smiles and nods - then one of the gentleman there gets a phone call from his daughter, he apologizes to the senator for the disruption and for taking the call, and states that it was his daughter and she called to tell him about the jump in gas prices. The senator's face dropped (he is very seasoned and good and it takes a lot to thow him off stride so you would know) and then he and his aid looked at each other like someone had just declared war, you could see their mouths tighten and the change in the look in their eyes for that moment. We are headed for a major recession like we haven't seen since the 1920's and 30's.
 
November is a long ways off, heller is up for oral arguements in about a week, other stuff will happen before the second tues of the 11th month of 2008, I don't need to decide who I'm voting for yet. I am leaning towards the Libertarian party at this point because that's where my principles lie. As far as the folk whining about my not supporting the Rep nominee, too bad, so sad it's my vote and I will use it as I choose.
 
So let me get this straight: You like Paul's message (ideals), but not the messenger. So now you are supporting a messenger you like even though you don't like his message?
Note that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't like McCain's message (ideals).

Yep, that makes sense to me. Imagine how foolish I feel for supporting ideals without regard for the package that they come in.
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Read the begining of the post. Great ideas but poor execution. From what I have read about him in the Senate this seems to be a theme. I don't care about the package personaly, but America does. It is one of those nasty little things called presidential politics that so unfairly doomed his campaign from the start.

And don't feel foolish, we all make mistakes. Beliving someone with no charisma can win votes from a majority of American voters in an election that is fought in >30 second soundbites gives many of our countrymen more credit than they deserve.

When I was at the strawpoll I had a chance to hear all the canidates present speak. When Dr. Paul's turn came his supporters marched into the arena, wildly yelling their support. No suprise there as all canidates asked their supporters to do the same. The only difference is that they continued chanting while the M.C.(for lack of a better phrase)was trying to introduce Dr. Paul. Three times she tried to start. At that point she gave up and said, "It looks like the inmates are running the asylum". That pretty accurately described the campaing as far as I could tell. It seemed that the enthusiasm was all coming from his supporters and none from him.

But like I said, someday someone will come along that will actualy be able to win the hearts and minds of the people with the same ideals as Paul. I am sorry that it took you so long to realize that the game of Presidential politics is not always a fair one and that charisma is a big part of the equation.
 
I need to correct something here. I'm pretty sure that none of my posts indicated that I thought that Paul could win. I simply had "Hope" that the electorate could "Change" and quit voting for people who had a history of violating the Constitution.
I will still work to that end, which is why I cannot vote for any of the big 3.
 
The cigar butt in the onion dip is that the electorate is not going to change. There will always be a limited number of intelligent, thoughtful voters on each side. And the "swing" vote will be those moved by emotions, charisma and straight teeth.
 
So let me get this straight: You like Paul's message (ideals), but not the messenger. So now you are supporting a messenger you like even though you don't like his message?
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and this is where the party is at......american idol
 
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