well shucks

I've heard that sort of nonsense for years, and it's just that -- nonsense and cheap rationalization. On the first Wednesday in November, either Obama (or Hillary) or McCain will be president. Those are the two choices. All your excuses and spin won't change that. If you don't choose McCain, you choose Obama.

Yes, I'm tired of the lesser of two evils, but I still prefer the lesser evil to the greater. And when you come right down to it, every election is a choice between the lesser of two evils for someone. If Ron Paul were the Republican nominee, he would have been the lesser evil for some Republicans. If Romney were the the Republican nominee, he would have been the lesser evil for some. When Reagan was elected, he was no doubt the lesser evil for some Republicans.

It will always be thus. There will always be people for whom none of the available choices are perfect. But when that happens, you can still either choose the least imperfect or take your marbles and go home in a huff because you haven't been presented with your perfect choice. But politics is always a compromise.

And I've not only been listening for years to people rant about having to choose between the lesser of two evils and claiming that by refusing to make such a choice they will change something. Well as far as I can see, such strategy hasn't changed anything yet. I doubt that it every will, because it will always be a choice between a greater and lesser evil for some people.

Whatever label you want to put on McCain, he is clearly more liberal than many conservatives like. But the great irony is that the all you hard line conservatives by refusing to vote for McCain help elect someone who is even far more liberal and with whom conservative interests will have no influence.
 
TBM, miboso and Marko...

+1
fiddletown said:
But the great irony is that the all you hard line conservatives by refusing to vote for McCain help elect someone who is even far more liberal and with whom conservative interests will have no influence.
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The great irony is that I've heard this same spiel in the '88, '92, '96, '00 and '04 elections. Each and every time, I've bought into it. Where has it gotten us? The last elections I was content to vote for a real candidate (real, in the sense that I actually thought the man would be good for the U.S.) was the '80 and '84 elections.

So...

I am done with this < or > evil choice. Whatever the choice, it is still evil.

Come November, I'll vote my local and State ballots. I'll vote for my Federal Rep and Senator. I'll vote for whatever initiatives might be there. I will not cast a vote for the President however.

When the only thing the Republican Party can muster up are liberals, I'm done with them also. The Republican Party, the Party of conservative thought, had better get back to its roots, or it can go the way of the whigs, for all I'll care.
 
Yes, you've always heard it, and you will continue to hear it, and what you propose to do will not change things. You didn't get your perfect Republican candidate, sorry. Maybe you'll never get it. Or maybe some day you'll get your perfect candidate, but he will be unsatisfactory to others who will in your fashion decline to vote for the lesser of two evils. And you will rail at them, but they will not relent; and the greater evil will be elected.

And it's still a fact that what you intend to do will be helping elect Obama (or Hillary, as the case may be). No sophistry or rationalization will change that. And the notion that doing so will have some sort of long range benefit is nothing but the barest speculation and wishful thinking.
 
Its funny that so many conservatives claim Reagan as some type of model of excellence. When in fact he was a pretty liberal Republican on many economic and social issues. Care to explain his raising of taxes,Expanding the influence of the government as President. He was also a Democrat governor of California. He was by many standards a liberal. Many famous Libertarians to this day hate the man. He would share many beliefs with McCain and even Hillary. It seems he was able to sell himself as a conservative while doing the opposite in power.
 
Reagan would not get elected today. He would be too liberal. Nobody ever got in the White House without winning over the middle roaders. That's a fact that may not go down well with some of you. I'll vote for McCain because I believe he will be better in Iraq or future circumstances and the inevitable Supreme Court appointees. If you want to sit it out because you didn't get John Wayne and blame the party, that's fine but the knife cuts two ways. You'll have no bitching rights when Obama or Hillary do their thing.
 
And it's still a fact that what you intend to do will be helping elect Obama (or Hillary, as the case may be). No sophistry or rationalization will change that.
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You know what? I'm sick of that little mantra.

You will be helping to elect Obama. You, you, you. You, and all the folks like you who have been settling for a consecutively worse succession of big-government, borrow-and-spend Republican candidates who have veered to the left so hard that a Kennedy-era Democrat would now be considered a staunch conservative.

And the notion that doing so will have some sort of long range benefit is nothing but the barest speculation and wishful thinking.
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We've seen the long-range benefit that resulted from your proposed strategy of voting for the Guy Who's Not Quite As Bad As The Other Guy: it's the mess that is present-day conservative ideology, and the pile of shards that is the Republican platform of 2008.

No more.

If we're going to boil (and don't kid yourself--the only difference between McCain and Obama/Hillary is a few degrees on the temperature dial), might as well not drag out the process. At least I can say I didn't willingly vote to become dinner.
 
I think of McCain-Feingold and the ramifications of that in this election. I think of W and McCain cheek to cheek at this weeks "endorsement." I think of supreme court nominees who voted against "Campaign Finance Reform" to no avail. I think of vacuous "Change." I think of oil running the current GOP show. I think of hyper unreported inflation.

My choices: Vote McCain, according to W an easy transition for more of the same. Vote for the DEM. to show the GOP a lesson. Or write in Ron Paul and stick to my principals, though ultimately a de facto vote for the Dem.

Or D. None of the above. There's months to go, and McCain isn't getting any younger. Prey for a miracle.
 
Eloquent and succinct! Well said Marko!

Just a bit before the primary here, Mrs. Grymster decided to sign up to vote absentee. When she got her materials back from the Registrar’s office, she discovered that they had registered her as a Democrat! :eek: I started in on what I thought would be an in-exhaustible supply of ribbing material. She just said “Democrat, Republican; so what’s the difference?”

So much for having fun with that one!:o
 
+1 to TBM and Miboso.


I am so sick of the blatant lies. A vote for anybody other than McCain is NOT a vote for the Democrat Candidate..it is a vote for anybody OTHER than McCain or whichever Democrat is on the ballot.

But further, I agree with the idea that if we are going to hell as a nation then it's better to hasten it than to continue to prolong it. People need a kick in the butt and perhaps the complete and utter destruction is our Republic is the only thing that will serve that function.
 
There are a few things you can always count on if you support a non-mainstream candidate in the Republican Party (like Ron Paul)...

First, they will tell you that your candidate has no chance.

Second, they will do everything in their power to associate your candidate with odd ball ideas to discredit him.

Third, after he does in fact lose, they will tell you that you must support their party candidate or else he won't win, and this election is just too important to try to make a political statement. Some of the younger folks here are probably not aware of this, but I certainly remember the Republicans using the "this election is just too important line" in 88, 92, 96, 2000, and 2004.

I thought elections were all about making political statements.
 
This thread is funny ha ha funny. For the longest time RP supporters laid out what they believed in, what RP stood for and where they thought the Rep party had gone astray.

We RP supporters were derided called kooks, moveon.orgers, DNC plants, unamerican, ect for our daring to question the ever expanding federal budget, the Iraq war, the ever growing police state brought on in the name of the War on Terror and many other things that are counter to what we believe this country should stand for.

Now that one of the most liberal Republican Senators a man who has been despised by conservatives and libertarians alike for a dozen years or more is the nominee.

Their persuasion tactic is not to try and highlight McCain's good points or tell us perhaps he'll select a younger more conservative running mate to help make him more pallatable to us.

No.

Their tactic is 'McCain is the nominee, if you don't like him too bad and if you don't vote for him you'll be helping to elect Hillbama'.:rolleyes:

Well maybe if Hillbama is elected the Republican party will learn a lesson, maybe after two years of Hillbama the Reps will regain control of congress, who knows.

I am going to vote I'm going to vote for my choices of congress people, the ones who will best protect the RKBA and oppose who ever gets elected President, be it McCain or Hilbama.

For Prez I'm thinking of either writing in RP or voting libertarian, then when Obama or McCain is in office destroyng the country I can say don't blame me I didn't vote for him.
 
Marko and the rest --

You may be sick of hearing that mantra -- too bad. It continues to be true whether or not you are willing to face it. So you will continue to hear it.

And now you blame the rest of the Republican Party because your guy didn't get enough support. Well that's the way this works. It's always the guy who garners the most votes, and your guy wasn't able to. So you've all decided to have a tantrum, take your toys and go home.

And you really seem to think that if you don't come to the party, because the you didn't get the candidate you wanted, that's going to change things? Phui!
Sit it out and people forget you exist.

And remember, if you ever get your dream candidate, he's going to be the lesser of two evils to a bunch of other folks. And if they follow your lead and take their toys and go home, then you'll lose.
 
Every time I encounter such discussions, I can't help but think of George Washington and his battles with the Continental Congress. Only rarely did Washington and his hard-fighting, long-suffering troops get the support they needed from the Continental Congress.

But rather than give up and go home because they didn't get everything they wanted, they fought on with what they had.

Substitute "McCain" for the Continental Congress, and "conservatives" for Washington and the troops, and the situation isn't much different. I, for one, plan to keep fighting rather than give up and go home.

Washington and the troops secured victory, not the Continental Congress. In the same manner, the American people who know an illegal alien amnesty bill when they see one secured victory when they complained to the President and Congress, defeating the bill.

Yes, I'll vote for McCain. You'll know when I have done so because you'll see the pinch bruises on my nostrils. And I'll vote for my Congressmen. After that, I'll watch him and Congress. If we can stop a boneheaded illegal alien amnesty bill, we can stop other boneheaded bills. Putting McCain into office doesn't mean he'll have free reign, even if he plans on being a one-termer, because the folks in Congress, without whom McCain can't do much, will want to keep their jobs.
 
First, I am only 23...this will only be the second Presidential election I could vote in.

With that in mind, I have no idea what I am going to do come November. I see both sides of the argument.

I understand what fiddletown is saying...a vote for anyone other than McCain is most likely helping Obama get in office and he is by far one of the most liberal possibilities out there.

However, I also see what Marko, TBM, and Antipitas are saying. I do not have the voting experience or firsthand knowledge of continually voting for the lesser of two evils, but I understand their firsthand experience.

I am in the middle of the road, months ago I would have been on the side of voting for McCain just to keep the "others" out of office, but currently I do not know what I will do.

Local and state elections are always important and I will of course vote in those elections, but as for the Presidential election I am not sure.

If people who will vote for McCain just because he is the lesser or just to keep the "others" out of office are just helping this country and the Republican Party move more central and left-leaning. I am a conservative, my values, ideals, and ways are all conservative, so to allow myself to just vote for McCain when he is OBVIOUSLY not a conservative is going against what I believe.

I am still undecided, I could end up voting for McCain, it will probably be a last second decision in the booth, but remember fiddletown and others who will argue your side...

The country will never change the way you want it to or get back to the way it was if we keep voting for the people they put out there, it will only cause them to keep throwing it at us. If we ALL made a stand and showed them we wanted a true conservative, then maybe we could get one. Highly unlikely, but just a thought
 
The country will never change the way you want it to or get back to the way it was if we keep voting for the people they put out there, it will only cause them to keep throwing it at us. If we ALL made a stand and showed them we wanted a true conservative, then maybe we could get one.
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Reagan gave conservatives just about everything they wanted. The problem is that a lot of conservatives felt that with Reagan, the war was won. Actually, a battle was won, but the war continues, and always will. What you are seeing is a shift back to the pre-Reagan, Rockefeller-Republican Party. In some ways, conservatives grew complacent and are now paying the bill for it.

But just as George Washington didn't give up, neither did Reagan when he was going against the Rockefeller-Republican flow. He stayed in the fight and ultimately succeeded.

The place to fight the battle is in the nomination process, whether for national or local office.
 
Its funny that so many conservatives claim Reagan as some type of model of excellence. When in fact he was a pretty liberal Republican on many economic and social issues. Care to explain his raising of taxes,
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Which taxes are you referring to ? Reagan cut federal income taxes way down. The top rate was 70%, he lowered it to 50%. The bottom rate was 14%, he lowered it to 11%.

I have no quarrel with those who are going to write in Ron Paul in the general election. I voted for him in the Primary and am glad I did. Really a good feeling to walk away from the voting booth knowing you voted for someone because you wanted to, not because you were voting against someone else. And, he had some amazing results considering he was such an outsider: exceptional money raising for someone underpublicized by the liberalMedia, and he outscored ( delegate count; yay, 14! :) ) several other candidates with much larger national reputations (“quitters”).

But, for me that fight is over and lost. I can’t say that I expected to win, but I knew I’d regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t make a contribution. The fact that Paul lost doesn't mean the effort was any less noble or righteous. Maybe in four years someone else will come along with similar qualifications.

I will vote for McCain in the general election because I’m clinging to the hope that he will appoint more conservative Supreme Court justices than Hillbama. That’s all I have left, and I’m not ceding it to those folks who would further restrict RKBA.

Your mileage may vary.
 
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