ugh. SD ammo

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And what am I supposed to do with it now?
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You're supposed to get some LE low recoil 00 buck, or #4 if you want, and use the target/light game shells for practice, since it'll have close to the same recoil.


You'll get to learn how to operate your shotgun and hit multiple targets quickly---like paper plates.

The mistake you made was not buying a case of the target loads for plenty of practice.
 
shortwave said:
My apologies. I thought this thread was about you not knowing the best 12GA. SD/HD round for defending your castle. If you bought the # 7 1/2`s for bird or small game hunting, skeet or trap, you`ll do just fine after you pattern your shotgun and select the right choke. You may have to buy more 7 1/2`s before finding the right choke, 25 rds. may not be enough. May I suggest a nice I/C to start out with. Thats always been my fav.
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ok, my first post was in fact about shotgun loads.
The 63rd post was about you telling me to get proficient before I use it to defend my house. My reply was to you, saying that I have my 45 for the house as well.
 
I'd be willing to put up some serious money to anyone willing to claim birdshot at across the room distances can't drop you. Heck yes, wear a bunch of winter clothes, get drugged up on whatever you like and I promise to hit you COM, no facial shots. Heck, I'll buy you the beers after the test.
I suspect I'll be drinking alone planning on getting off work for your funeral.
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Let them use the plywood as body armor and I'll buy the beer.:eek:
 
12" vs 20" barrel

The opening angle of a 12" barrel is almost twice that of the 20", and it would make a much larger spread, and at lower velocity. It's nothing like the difference of 8 linear inches from the target.
 
With all due respect...

... are you shooting game animals with birdshot at 3 to 5 yards, HogDogs? The lighter shot decelerates faster due to aerodynamic drag than the heavier shot, and between that and spread over distance there's a huge difference in how it performs at close range vs the ranges where one would normally shoot at a hog, except when receiving a charge.
 
Birdshot advocates, please read http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

Keep in mind that no matter what projectiles you are launching at something that may stomp/stab/slash/shoot/trample/gore/eat you if it isn't stopped immediately, you have only two things going for you- placement and penetration. Placement is in your hands as a shooter. Penetration depends on the ammunition you choose.

Great placement with poor penetration is not going to net you a stop. Great penetration with poor placement, likewise. To shut down a dangerous situation, you as a defensive shooter must achieve both PLACEMENT and PENETRATION. Or else things may not go well for you.

fwiw,

lpl
 
The opening angle of a 12" barrel is almost twice that of the 20",
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So you are saying that the bore at 12 inches is still in the "forcing cone"? It isn't a 12 gauge cylinder bore at 12 inches?
are you shooting game animals with birdshot at 3 to 5 yards, HogDogs?
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At times, yes, usually straight up in a little tree. Farthest on a coon is from 30 45 feet up a tree on average for my prior kills.
normally shoot at a hog
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With the exception of being charged, I would never expect 00 to do much at typical hunting range on a hog. Slugs or rifle only from me on hogs.
Brent
 
that a 12 inch barrel would spread out the pattern, delivering less penetration and power from smaller shot.
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That is totally false. A cylinder bore at 12 inches will throw the same pattern as a cylinder bore at 18 inches, albeit with less velocity. Penetration has nothing to do with pattern, only the width.

Shoot the BG with whatever you happen to have at the moment. If you've planned well, you'll use the heaviest pellets that YOU can control and shoot well.
 
So you're saying that physical characteristics of a tube..

... moving a spray of projectiles will behave completely differently from a tube guiding a spray of photons (scopes, telephoto lenses, flashlights) or water?

I don't have access to my shotgun at the moment, because I'm TDY. Somebody with an 18" and a 30" set of barrels, please set up some targets at 5yds and get some comparison photos, please? (Same relative ratios 3:5 as the 12 vs 20)

Pattern density does affect penetration with birdshot, because as long as it stays relatively dense and packed, it penetrates as a unit. When it disperses, each little pellet has to act independently. It isn't just velocity.
 
Actually, I bet a dollar to a doughnut that the difference in width of pattern for a 30 to a 12 is equal to stepping back exactly 18 inches further from the line...
Tube is tube is tube cylindrical... lead are not protons, they are just projectiles that are going to leave a straight cylinder and begin to spread at the same rate as from a 48 inch 12 gauge cylindrical barrel but with a loss of MV.
Brent
 
bullets and slugs

are in contact with and guided by the bore throughout the length of the barrel;

Pellets are relatively loose, and can develop movement that is not perfectly parallel to the axis of the bore, this is why we get patterning; if this were not the case, then the patterns wouldn't open and you'd have a 12bore pattern through the length of its trajectory.

Given a couple weeks, I can probably do the test myself, but I would think somebody in the forum could get one done prior to that.
 
the effect of barrel length on pattern is negligible...what matters is the choke.

the effect of barrel length on velocity is noticeable for shorter barrels, but once the barrel length is around 20 inches, velocity gained from a longer barrel is negligible.
 
Instead of saying effect is negligible...

...somebody please get some barrels, same choke or lack of choke, in very different lengths and take some comparison pictures of their spreads at 3, 5, and maybe 7 yards (inside distances for apartments and most houses).
 
Ok, have been reading tech data wherever I could find it...

... and the moral of the story is, don't argue with Hogdogs about shotguns...

Barrel length effect on pattern is considered negligible by all accounts I could find.

I still want to test this out in a few weeks, and compare an 18" vs a 28" without chokes. It will be interesting to see the theory borne out.
 
Choke constriction determines pattern; barrel length (to a point) determines velocity; barrel weight and length help determine smoothness of swing on moving targets
 
Come On

Buckshot won't work either. It is intended for male members of the deer family. Why do you think they call it BUCKSHOT! So, unless your intruder is sporting a set of antlers, buckshot won't work. Simple, birdshot for small flying creatures, buckshot for antlered quadrupeds and bad guy shot for self defense.
 
This is posted on the other concurrent arguement,

Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range?




I have, more than I would like, believe me, and at the ranges you are talking about in an apartment (unless you are talking NYC 6000 square foot TV land apartment) bird shot will do all you want it to do.

One victim was shot by his own gun, he had laid it on the boat rail and climbed out, the dog or the action of him pulling the boat up, caused the gun to discharge. he was about 6 foot from the muzzle, HE was DRT. He had a clean hole thru his chest about 2 inches in diameter, and he was wearing heavy winter clothing as well as waders.

I witnessed another recovery where a ND killed a hunter at about 15 feet from recounts of the others. One hunter was tracking ducks coming in low, when another stood up and stepped into his line of fire. again, DRT< complete thru and thru penetration, and the overly eager hunter who did not listen to the rules was dead instantly.




Now go measure how far it would be from your muzzle to the furthest point of contact with a BG in your apartment, I am going to guess that its not much more than 5 or 7 yards, quite probably less, and think about my two examples of REAL shootings, not extrapolations or inventive thinking but real world lead vs body events. # 4 or # 6 in an apartment is going to do the job very well.


So for every body who claims to KNOW whats going on, tell me you have seen bird shot fail, or the results of a close range shooting with your own eyes. NOT pics, NOT stories, YOUR eyes.

Then tell me it won't work.
 
Guntotin: Good post. One of the problems I have is SOOOO many posters are that they are simply spouting what they have heard from some other poster that doesn't have a clue about HD. It all sounds good, but based on heresay and BS.
I posted earlier, "lets take a poll", how many that claim buckshot is the only choice that have actual experience. As expected, damn few have ANY idea of what they are talking about. This is to be expected in a forum anyways.
There are exceptions to everything so people that post the miniscule exceptions expect us to believe that this is the "norm" There are exceptions to everything. Look at soldiers that have had tremendous wounds that actually live, they don't fight at the moment, but do in fact live through it
I have absolutly NO DOUBT that 00 or bigger buckshot is the best to stop a bad guy, hell, slugs probably work better yet.
I don't talk about it much, but in a younger lifetime, in another world, I worked as a LEO in a small Town. Now my actual experience is limited to ONE occurance, so I am NOT an expert.
The situation was where a man broke into a womans home when her husband was not there, she thought her husband was at the door so she didn't get up from bed. She heard a "crash" (door being broken into) and had the presence of mind to roll over off the bed and grab the shotgun her husband kept under the bed. The guy that broke in entered the bedroom, she saw it was not her husband and fired 1 shot to his chest. If I remember right, he was around 15 to 18 feet away when hit (5 to 6 yards). From her report, he fell to the flooor immediatly, she called the Police and I was the 2nd one there.
I am trying to remember the report accuratly, but it was a long time ago. I think, it was #6 shot that the husband used for Pheasant hunting in the gun.
As I said, I don't have a LOT of experience in this kind of thing and I guess I am actually very glad I don't. The couple moved out soon after, but the carpet had to be replaced as the bloodstains were huge, on the carpet, walls, bedspread, everwhere. I know, I saw them
Anyone that wants to tell me birdshot can't stop someone, either has his head up his wazoo or is just posturing and has NO KNOWLEDGE whatever of what birdshot will do at close range.
I had to identify the guy at the Coronors Office. He had no clothes on, obviously, but he did have a 2 or 3 inch hole at his sternum that looked very deep.
Is #6 birdshot the best available, of course not, will it work at close range, of course it will
 
But- "Why don't the cops use birdshot?"
Cops may have to use a shotgun up close or at long range, that's why. Buckshot works better at longer ranges.
At 5 feet a blank 12 ga. shell could easily put someone down.
At 15 feet birdshot is quite deadly. Of course, larger shot works better.
One of our local sherrifs put a shotgun muzzle (870, 18" bbl, 00 buckshot) in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The buckshot did not exit the head! So much for the needed penetration!
Another man shot a guy with a load of #8 shot at about 8-10 feet. Blew out part of the right lung. ER surgeons picked the plastic wad off the spine. He didn't die, but a few inches left or right could have been deadly. Ambulance and hospital was 1/4 mile away. He was really lucky. Buckshot would have made no difference.
 
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great story. the front door is 25 feet from my room door. if I was going to be in a defensive position, it would be beside the couch in front of my room door. So, the distance would be 20 feet to 30 feet maximum from me to target.
 
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