ugh. SD ammo

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i dunno. we are debating the merits of ONE 7 1/2 bird shot shell. He does have 25 of them you know.

OP, you didnt mention what type of 12 ga you got. Pump, semi, SxS, O/U?

cause yes, the wound may be shallow, and not penetrate the rib cage, but it will deliver a lot of force to the target, like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

and if it doesnt disable the target, you shoot them again. and again if you have to.
 
greyson97 said:
i dunno. we are debating the merits of ONE 7 1/2 bird shot shell. He does have 25 of them you know.

OP, you didnt mention what type of 12 ga you got. Pump, semi, SxS, O/U?

cause yes, the wound may be shallow, and not penetrate the rib cage, but it will deliver a lot of force to the target, like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

and if it doesnt disable the target, you shoot them again. and again if you have to
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What if the bad guy's shooting back at you?
You've just given the advantage to the bad guy and lost the fight..

You may only get one shot off at said bad guy - MAKE IT COUNT!


Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly
 
What if the bad guy's shooting back at you?
You've just given the advantage to the bad guy and lost the fight..
You may only get one shot off at said bad guy - MAKE IT COUNT!
Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly
Click to expand...

i doubt any human can take a load of bird shot to the chest and be so unfazed they can properly return fire.

my point is, if you practice, you can get a 7 1/2 load into a persons chest. injure him as well as faze him, and then get a follow up shot.

and if you only have one shot and miss, well it wont matter if you miss with 00 or 7 1/2

also, 00 buck is approximately the equivalent of a 9mm ball round. in the other forums, people will argue that 9mm ball is insufficient stopping power for a hand gun and you need a .40 or even a .45

so no matter what sort of argument we make, it will never be enough until its agreed upon that the best HD weapon is an abrahms tank.
 
greyson, Aren't you a self admitted newguy to shotgunnin'?
If I am correct in this, you will notice in short order that we have several regular guys in this section that are "PRO" (career involved shot guns to some degree) in this arena. There are also a bunch of guys who are regular sporting clays shooters. Some of these 2 groups use shot gun for HD. Then there are those of us who have just a gob of day to day use of shotguns from just shooting targets of various material to hunting for the sole purpose of gathering meat rather than go hungry (muscovy duck is gross, bisquick and water is gross but the 2 together is edible;)). Some of us have done a bunch of impromptu penetration testing for various reasons and have already made the decisions of what works for what. Heck, I won't intentionally load smaller than #4 for coons but many others find #6 to be fine. If I wouldn't load smaller than #4 for a coon under 20 yards (switch to small buck shot for further shots) Why would I ever feel 7 1/2 is reliable for ALL possible HD situations. Combine all of the negatives such as "thick" folks doped on drugs, wearing excessive clothing, and psychotic nut job all rolled into one... Gimme no less than #3 buck in my 20 and I am praying it will suffice. I have other arms but that 20 is my short barrel pump and I have a very close affection and familiarity with that particular firearm. I feel the "BA/UU/R" of Dave McC is why that gun is my go to. Short of rimfire, I don't think I have 1/4 the number of rounds down range with any other gauge or caliber let alone one gun that I have out of that one gun. Am self educated on what I can expect from each shot size and and that says that, short of a miracle, birdshot cannot be expected to incapacitate a threat in one well placed shot EVERYTIME...
Brent
 
i would like to state, that i never said 7 1/2 was BETTER than 00. I have 00 in my HD gun. I am just arguing that you can defend yourself and incapacitate someone with multiple birdshot rounds if necessary

just like you can defend yourself with a .22. I wouldnt want to, but you can
 
You know what works better than birdshot for stopping and is guaranteed not to over-penetrate?

Breaching rounds.

*grabs popcorn*








Now that I've stirred the pot, this video on YouTube has highspeed video of birdshot, buckshot, slug, etc impacts in ballistic gelatin, around 6 minutes: Rounds of Authority. It doesn't have any real new information for this discussion, but it's nifty. And they shoot a breaching round into gelatin at 11:20, as well as flares and some other absurd things, just for giggles.
 
While I don't have much intelligent to add to the bird v. buck debate,,

To address part of the OP's question,

If I were a betting man, I would guess that the reason the salesperson sold you birdshot is because that's what he had on hand. If the ammo shelves at their store looks anything like the ones I frequent, buckshot, and any other "defensive" ammo has been in pretty short supply.

It becomes an issue of making a $12 sale with what's on hand or sending your customer down the street to your competitor.
 
i mean dont get me wrong, or get me wrong whatever. on another board in this forum, one guy is like "hey is a 30-6 bolt action rifle ok for HD in an apartment?" and everyone over there is like, "make do with what you have", and "its better to have something than nothing", and over here its like "7 1/2 birdshot for HD?" and the replies are "NOOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!"

*cries*
 
While I like 7-1/2's and 8's, even 8-1/2's for the thousands of clays I shoot annually, I prefer something heavier in the old HD gun. IF you can't get one of the buck shot sizes, then grab a turkey load or even a heavy #2 or #4 bird load. Yes, 7-1/2 at close range MAY do the job. I would think if you hit the knee close enough, most of the leg would be somewhere else, but I would prefer the heavier load to that. FWIW, my primary HD gun is a pistol, the 500 is in the closet. ANYTHING is better than shouting nasty words.......
 
Skittles thrown from the strong hand beat naughty words every time...:D

I too, would choose a 7 1/2 over a fist fight or nothing at all. That is how I choose to plan and train for the possible need to use lethal force. Since I opted to engross myself in that one 20 gauge I am forever stuck with "small balls" buckshot and really entertain the idea of practicing for a sure shot everytime.

Brent
 
"7 1/2 birdshot for HD?" and the replies are "NOOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!"
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Planned? Absolutely would I consider myself wrong to plan for H/D with 7 1/2. I won't even give up one slot in my mag for anything under the #4 buck I have had to resort to due to inventory limitations of the 20. But with planning no one has to resort to a birdshot for HD ;):rolleyes::eek:
Brent
 
Ballistic gel is not a comparison medium for humans or any other animal.
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Actually, it IS a comparison medium for human tissue. That's one of it's main purposes, to provide comparative study of penetration through tissue.

Also, to address another comment somebody made--birdshot sure as hell will go through a wall, and still be fatal on the other side. It should never be treated lightly.
 
Screw it, throw 'em in the trunk of your car. Someday, regardless of whether or not you even have the shotgun with you, having 25 shells worth of powder and 25 shotshell primers may come in handy... hardcore MacGuyver style.
If you can find some land that is public or private that's not too far away, shooting clays is great practice at both shooting moving targets and time-limited physics calculations... and a whole lot of freaking fun. 25 shells go pretty quick.
 
Kyo asked:
And what am I supposed to do with it now?
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Go to the local Trap field and shoot a round. It'll give you some practice with your new gun and use the shells. You might like the game so much you'll take it up regular.

DC
 
For all you naysayers I posted this on the first page of this thread.

tell ya what, take a 12ga. or even a 20ga. with a 1oz load of 7 1/2 shot and put one into a sheet of 3/4 plywood at 15 feet....It will change your opinion.
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I would like someone to try this and then take a picture and post it on here. I would do it for you but I am still in Iraq for 3 more weeks. I have tried this many years ago. IIRC almost every bit of the shot went into an area the size of my fist. It also made a quarter sized exit hole. Granted 3/4" plywood is not the same as a BG but it will show you what it will do at such a close distance. Most people don't realize that at that close of a range the shot hasn't had much distance to spread out yet meaning that almost every bit of shot will be concentrated in one small area.
 
pump 7+1 with the 2 3/4 and 5+1 with 3 inchers.
45 colt you might have a point. I will look for a skeet/trap place. It can be fun I never shot a shotgun before I need to learn
 
7 2-3/4 vs 5-3

That doesn't add up.... difference of 1/4" per shell, 5 3" shells take up an extra 1.25" over 5 2.75"; that isn't enough difference for 1 full round, let alone 2. Just curious as to how this is happening in your tube?
 
That doesn't add up.... difference of 1/4" per shell, 5 3" shells take up an extra 1.25" over 5 2.75"; that isn't enough difference for 1 full round, let alone 2. Just curious as to how this is happening in your tube?
Click to expand...

magic
 
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