U.N. making homeschooling illegal?

I'm neither pro nor con on home schooling. I think parents should do what they feel is best for their kids, but I have one personal observation. The only two adults I know who were home schooled were/are social retards by their own admission. They don't work well with others, they don't know how to comprimise and it has caused them both grief in dealing with everyday work place environments. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are........if you're a pushy, know it all, asshat nobody will take you serious or listen to your opinion. Even when you happen to be correct. They both feel they missed out on the social interaction and learning to deal with people they would have gotten in a public/private school while dealing with other kids their age. I don't think it happens to every home schooled kid, but I think it's a consideration and something that needs to be taken into account.
 
The UN should be more concerned with they're little child incest problem, and less concerned about how we school our chlidren.

I'd like to see the lease end, and take Kofi with.
 
DonR101395, lack of socialization in HS

DonR101395 said:
I'm neither pro nor con on home schooling. I think parents should do what they feel is best for their kids, but I have one personal observation. The only two adults I know who were home schooled were/are social retards by their own admission. They don't work well with others, they don't know how to comprimise and it has caused them both grief in dealing with everyday work place environments. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are........if you're a pushy, know it all, asshat nobody will take you serious or listen to your opinion. Even when you happen to be correct. They both feel they missed out on the social interaction and learning to deal with people they would have gotten in a public/private school while dealing with other kids their age. I don't think it happens to every home schooled kid, but I think it's a consideration and something that needs to be taken into account.

That is interesting. There was a study which found out that home school children were, on average, better socially adjusted and more balanced psychologically speaking, compared to their peers in public school.

Usually, parents who home school their children make sure that their children are involved in some kind of social activities with their peers. But compared to public/private schools, under more closely watched provision since parents' vested interest in their own children usually exceed the interest displayed by teachers.

Off course, it could also be that mature adults who happen to be their parents provide a better social role model than their peers in public and private school system.

--John
 
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That is interesting. There was a study which found out that home school children were, on average, better socially adjusted and more balanced psychologically speaking, compared to their peers in public school.

Usually, parents who home school their children make sure that their children are involved in some kind of social activities with their peers. But compared to public/private schools, under more closely watched provision since parents' vested interest in their own children usually exceed the interest displayed by teachers.

Off course, it could also be that mature adults who happen to be their parents provide a better social role model than their peers in public and private school system.

That's a very good point and you made it better than I did. You have to make the effort to get them the social interaction. The one gentleman was raised about 25 miles from the nearest neighbor, so I can see why he is like he is, the other guy I'm convinced would have been socially inept even if he had been the Capt of the football team, class president, and homecoming king.
 
Ok I'm not a fan of home schooling for the reasons of the social skills that out of home schooling provides. OK home schoolers don't even try to say the little gatherings yall do are the same (I had 3 cousins homeschooled) cause they're not. I am not a fan of public education either due to the liberal whackos that run this system. I had many debates with my high school teachers and am now dealing with them again due to having a school age daughter. I am not religous either so a parochial school is out tooBUT At the same time it is these parents god given right to school their kids however they want to and it is nobodys business to tell them otherwise. The UN can go pound sand because we are a soverign nation and whatever they think doesnt really mean a damn thing. As for activist judges we need to vote out the executives that appoint them every time it happens for this is the the only way we will take back our country from them.
 
DonR101395, minorities & grad rates

DonR101395 said:
I've been reading your posts for a while Handy and finally agree with you. Graduation rates of black, hispanic, blue or gold students has nothing to do with the quality of education except that maybe those not graduating could not hold the standard that was set. There is nothing wrong with setting a high standard and holding every student to the same standard. If a kid can't read in the 12th grade maybe he shouldn't graduate........or how about if a kid can't maintain the standard of the grade he's in you keep him the that grade until he can. If we would go back to holding everyone accountable for their actions or lack of action we would be much better of as a society as a whole.

1. You are absolutely right in that standards shouldn't be lowered to allow illiterate students to graduate since that would do further harm to them when they attend university or join the workforce.

2. pedagogy(teaching methods) do matter and minorities are further hindered by bilingual program. Studies show that minority children who were exposed to bilingual program in public schools showed lower attainment of English language proficiency compared to their peers who were never in bilingual program.

In retrospect, this is common sense to anybody who is familiar with immersion method. If a child spends 100% of his time speaking, reading, and writing in English, that child is likely to demonstrate a higher level of English proficiency compared to his peer who spent only 80% of his time learning English. And mastery of English is fundamental to that child's future success if (s)he is going to live and succeed in U.S.

Ditto for math and science. Unless one is gifted in mathematics, learning math involves intensive and repetitive problem solving exercises. Witnout it, basic and advanced mathematical concepts cannot be understood.

3. Stossel in "Stupid in America" shows an example of one black high school student who was a functional illiterate and couldn't graduate.

After years of intensive schooling through local public high and expenditure of over $100,000, he was still illiterate.

However, after spending 70-80 hours through a private for-profit corporation teaching basic reading and writing skill, his basic literacy improved two grade levels.

--John
 
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Stossel/Stupid in America

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338


ABC News
John Stossel's 'Stupid in America'
How Lack of Choice Cheats Our Kids Out of a Good Education
By JOHN STOSSEL

Jan. 13, 2006 — - "Stupid in America" is a nasty title for a program about public education, but some nasty things are going on in America's public schools and it's about time we face up to it.

Kids at New York's Abraham Lincoln High School told me their teachers are so dull students fall asleep in class. One student said, "You see kids all the time walking in the school smoking weed, you know. It's a normal thing here."
...
One was Woodrow Wilson High. Newsweek says it's one of the best schools in America. Yet what the students taped didn't inspire confidence.

One teacher didn't have control over the kids. Another "20/20" student cameraman videotaped a boy dancing wildly with his shirt off, in front of his teacher.

If you're like most American parents, you might think "These things don't happen at my kid's school." A Gallup Poll survey showed 76 percent of Americans were completely or somewhat satisfied with their kids' public school.

Education reformers like Kevin Chavous have a message for these parents: If you only knew.

Even though people in the suburbs might think their schools are great, Chavous says, "They're not. That's the thing and the test scores show that."

Chavous and many other education professionals say Americans don't know that their public schools, on the whole, just aren't that good. Because without competition, parents don't know what their kids might have had.

And while many people say, "We need to spend more money on our schools," there actually isn't a link between spending and student achievement.

Jay Greene, author of "Education Myths," points out that "If money were the solution, the problem would already be solved ... We've doubled per pupil spending, adjusting for inflation, over the last 30 years, and yet schools aren't better."

He's absolutely right. National graduation rates and achievement scores are flat, while spending on education has increased more than 100 percent since 1971. More money hasn't helped American kids.
....
To give you an idea of how competitive American schools are and how U.S. students performed compared with their European counterparts, we gave parts of an international test to some high school students in Belgium and in New Jersey.

Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks, and called them "stupid."

We didn't pick smart kids to test in Europe and dumb kids in the United States. The American students attend an above-average school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kids have test scores that are above average for America.

Lov Patel, the boy who got the highest score among the American students, told me, "I'm shocked, because it just shows how advanced they are compared to us."

The Belgian students didn't perform better because they're smarter than American students. They performed better because their schools are better. At age 10, American students take an international test and score well above the international average. But by age 15, when students from 40 countries are tested, the Americans place 25th.


American schools don't teach as well as schools in other countries because they are government monopolies, and monopolies don't have much incentive to compete. In Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.

Belgian school principal Kaat Vandensavel told us she works hard to impress parents.

She told us, "If we don't offer them what they want for their child, they won't come to our school." She constantly improves the teaching, saying, "You can't afford 10 teachers out of 160 that don't do their work, because the clients will know, and won't come to you again."

"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."

Last week Florida's Supreme Court shut down "opportunity scholarships," Florida's small attempt at competition. Public money can't be spent on private schools, said the court, because the state constitution commands the funding only of "uniform . . . high-quality" schools. Government schools are neither uniform nor high-quality, and without competition, no new teaching plan or No Child Left Behind law will get the monopoly to serve its customers well.

The longer kids stay in American schools, the worse they do in international competition. They do worse than kids from poorer countries that spend much less money on education, ranking behind not only Belgium but also Poland, the Czech Republic and South Korea.
...
Here's just one example from New York City: It took years to fire a teacher who sent sexually oriented e-mails to "Cutie 101," a 16-year-old student. Klein said, "He hasn't taught, but we have had to pay him, because that's what's required under the contract."


Only after six years of litigation were they able to fire him. In the meantime, they paid the teacher more than $300,000. Klein said he employs dozens of teachers who he's afraid to let near the kids, so he has them sit in what are called rubber rooms.

This year he will spend $20 million dollars to warehouse teachers in five rubber rooms. It's an alternative to firing them. In the last four years, only two teachers out of 80,000 were fired for incompetence. Klein's office says the new contract will make it easier to get rid of sex offenders, but it will still be difficult to fire incompetent teachers.
...
Zoned Out of a Good Education

I talked with 18-year-old Dorian Cain in South Carolina, who was still struggling to read a single sentence in a first-grade level book when I met him. Although his public schools had spent nearly $100,000 on him over 12 years, he still couldn't read.

So "20/20" sent Dorian to a private learning center, Sylvan, to see if teachers there could teach Dorian to read when the South Carolina public schools failed to.

Using computers and workbooks, Dorian's reading went up two grade levels -- after just 72 hours of instruction.

His mother, Gena Cain, is thrilled with Dorian's progress but disappointed with his public schools. "With Sylvan, it's a huge improvement. And they're doing what they're supposed to do. They're on point. But I can't say the same for the public schools," she said.

DVD is available here:
http://www.lfb.org/index.php?stocknumber=SL9051
 
Hopefully, nobody read into my post anything that would lead them to believe that I don't think that parents have a right to homeschool their children. I just love it when a post starts with, "there was a study......blah, blah,blah." :) Yeah, no joke! "There was a study."

I refuse to believe that a state in which capital punishment is not an option (and you can include Europe in this) offers high school educations superior to or equal to college educations. Properly educated folks wind up with "walking-about sense." ;)

I don't know what the real long-term effects of homeschooling are...but neither do those touting homeschooling. Homeschooling, while certainly having been around for a long, long time, only became popular with a certain element of our population in fairly recent history. Time will tell how many physicians, lawyers, accountants, c.e.o.'s, etc., etc., are pulled from the ranks of the homeschooled.

One person's "Christian" is another person's "zealot." ;) What percentage of homeschooling parents profess a religion other than Christianity? Wanna bet it's less than 10%???
 
What percentage of homeschooling parents profess a religion other than Christianity? Wanna bet it's less than 10%???
Do you have any data to support your position? Perhaps more importantly, why should it matter?

Homeschooling is not just a passing or fringe fad. It is growing rapidly, and currently encompasses over a million US students.
 
Since 80% of Americans are Christians of one denomination or another, it's no huge stretch to extrapolate that 80% of home-schoolers are Christians as well. However, it doesn't matter, as has been pointed out. If I have the right to teach my kid at home, then so does a Christian or a Buddhist or a Wiccan. We all may teach our kids stuff that the others view as wrong, immoral or nonsense, but that's parental prerogative, and it's not my business to make sure my neighbor's kid only learns stuff that I approve.

If the guy across the street teaches his kid that the earth is 5,000 years old or that humans were put on earth by alien overlords, then that kid most likely won't go on to become a geologist or biologist. The market will sort it out later on in life.
 
1. All public schools are not equal some states might have the best and some might have the worst.

2. When Uncle is involved in funding anything there is no such thing as a freebie, the strings just get tied tighter by the bureacrats and now you have to follow thier rules which means things generally get fouled up. Hi we are here from the Federal Govenment to help you.

3. We have the No student left behind which is a catchy slogan, but what about no schools, teachers and students left behind.
 
I refuse to believe that a state in which capital punishment is not an option (and you can include Europe in this) offers high school educations superior to or equal to college educations. Properly educated folks wind up with "walking-about sense."

I'm not sure I see the link between capital punishment and education. If anything, the areas of the world that would be considered civilized and better educated tend to abolish the death penalty. Life and experience, as well as a persons natural inclination, teaches "walking-about sense". Academic education is a different thing.

I don't know what the real long-term effects of homeschooling are...but neither do those touting homeschooling

I can't speak for all homeschoolers, but I can give some personal, anecdotal evidence. Daughter #1. Graduated high school and started college at 16. BA at 20, while taking time to get married and have a kid. Social butterfly. Currently working on MA in education.

Daughter #2. Graduated high school at 14. Took the state high school proficiency exam and announced that she could have passed that in grade school. Currently in college, sorting out what direction she will go. Leaning toward deaf studies and teaching the handicapped.

Son #1. My son, due to a chronic and so far incurable disease, has special needs that could not be met in a public school. He has good days and bad. Homeschooling allows us to adjust his learning schedule around his condition.
Social activities include Boy Scouts and Junior Marksmanship programs.

My point is, homeschooling provides opportunity, not handicap. Just for the record, I am a Christian. We do teach knowledge of evolution in our school. We teach it as a theory, we don't teach it as a fact. I bring this up only because it seems to be a real hang-up for non Christians who oppose homeschooling.

One person's "Christian" is another person's "zealot."

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
Eghad, best public high schools

Eghad said:
1. All public schools are not equal some states might have the best and some might have the worst.

2. When Uncle is involved in funding anything there is no such thing as a freebie, the strings just get tied tighter by the bureacrats and now you have to follow thier rules which means things generally get fouled up. Hi we are here from the Federal Govenment to help you.

3. We have the No student left behind which is a catchy slogan, but what about no schools, teachers and students left behind.

Stossel/Stupid in America found out that students from above average high schools were far below similarily ranked students in Europe after 4th grade. In fact, other studies found out that educational disparity keep on increasing after 4th grade.

Reason? In Europe, government education money tracks where the child goes to school and is not tied to residential district like in U.S. So if the child's parents decide to send their children to a private school instead of public school, private school gets the tuition money unlike in U.S. where you end paying for public school, whether you use it or not.

This forces private and public schools to listen to and respond to parents' concern for sound education, resulting in sound pedagogy that results in students learning.

BTW, in U.S., private schools operate on 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of public schools. Teachers in private schools are paid less, but higher percentage of tuition actually goes to classroom since the size and the cost of staff in private schools are much less compared to public school.

--John
 
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Ausserordeutlich, def. of education and pysch profile/HS

Ausserordeutlich said:
Hopefully, nobody read into my post anything that would lead them to believe that I don't think that parents have a right to homeschool their children. I just love it when a post starts with, "there was a study......blah, blah,blah." Yeah, no joke! "There was a study."

I refuse to believe that a state in which capital punishment is not an option (and you can include Europe in this) offers high school educations superior to or equal to college educations. Properly educated folks wind up with "walking-about sense."

I don't know what the real long-term effects of homeschooling are...but neither do those touting homeschooling. Homeschooling, while certainly having been around for a long, long time, only became popular with a certain element of our population in fairly recent history. Time will tell how many physicians, lawyers, accountants, c.e.o.'s, etc., etc., are pulled from the ranks of the homeschooled.

One person's "Christian" is another person's "zealot." What percentage of homeschooling parents profess a religion other than Christianity? Wanna bet it's less than 10%???

1. I think much of learning/education takes place outside of classroom, like "walking-about sense." But formal school knowledge, like ability to read and write, solve basic problems in algebra and calculus, and basic knowledge of history can be tested.

2. there are several studies which looked at psychological/social development file of HS graduates. Brown study is one:

http://www.childresearch.net/RESOURCE/NEWS/2005/200509.HTM

there are few differences between the peer relationships of HS[home schooled] and TS[traditionally schooled] children, and that there are many signs of positive adjustment in HS children. HS children have better attitudes towards teachers and parents. They also seem to have better attitudes about themselves and towards interpersonal relationships, although it is unclear whether these positive feelings extend to an academic sense of self.


3. My current suspicion is that HS is the best option for both the parents and the children if the parents have the basic resources to do it. The reason is alignment of proper interest, cost, and responsibility (parents are responsible for the welfare of their children, bear most of the cost, and usually have children's best interest as their own). HS allows closer supervision compared to a paid public or private school teachers, no matter how altruistic (s)he may be, and furthermore, it develops a closer bonds b/w parents and the child.

--John
 
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Private schools also lack as extensive science and industrial programs, as well as fewer sports and other extra curricular activities.

The primary advantage private schools have is motivated parents, because they paid tuition. A public school will have every kind of student/parent combination, including both motivated and uninterested parents.


There are certainly some advantages to private schools - it is much easier to hold someone accountable when you are footing the bill. But the better public have more money and use it on their students.


In high school, I played two sports, took five years of math, two of drafting, marched in a band, disected a pig, ran protein analysis using electrophoresis, participated in two academic competition programs, acted in three plays, was vice president of the student government, read Shakespeare, Whitman and Steinbeck, played sand volleyball and archery in gym, learned to type and won the art show.

I did not take auto hobby, wood or metals shop, video editing, cooking or business classes. They were also offered, and I wish I had done more, because everything I've listed was free.

We didn't have a pool, though. But most private schools lack both a pool and most of the above list, so I guess I feel lucky to have attended public school. I was able to go to a very good university. My brother was one of two kids in his class that were accepted to the Naval Academy (there are whole states that fail to produce one Academy apointment). Most graduating classes at our school had at least one.
 
Used to be that US students were among the best, if not the best, educated students in the world. Sixties and before... What happened?

Somebody tell me what happened? How is it that we have thrown all this money at a problem that began to develop in the late sixties/early seventies and we are falling further and further behind?

We have a UN proposal to bring third world countries up to par with modern industrial nations. People, Here, have gotten all upset over this. Is it because we are now a third world nation, as regards our educational system, and the realization of this has gotten everyones feathers ruffled?

Statistics for State rankings may be found here. Also on this page is a tab for your particular state and its statistics. It is appalling how much money is spent versus how much in achievement we have lost.

I suspect that there are two major areas that have changed over the years. I suggest that in these two areas, we have the answer to my questions above.

1. Accountability. From School Boards to Administrators to Teachers, the feds have mandated so much (in order to qualify for Federal funds), that the individual schools can not be held accountable to the local populace, without losing those Federal funds. Since Federal funding is approximately 35% across the board, the locals have lost control.

2. Standards. Currently, we have a nation that teaches solely to the lowest common denominator (LCD). This makes for bored students, as the majority are not challenged. Those students that go on to higher education are not equipped to excel. This is an obvious product where we see that up until grade 4, we are on equivalence with the European model, whereas above grade 4, our students suffer from this model and is related directly to lower scholarship.

As noted above, bilingual or ESL students and classrooms suffer scholasticly because they are not immersed in the English language. Like it or not, English is the de facto national language. When students are challenged to learn and use this language, their skills improve. This relates to item #2 above, as LCD teaching regards both/all languages to be par.

The obvious solutions are to get the Feds out of the classroom and to set standards and to adhere to them - If a student fails, then (s)he fails.
 
This is one issue that pisses me off because it has directly effected me. I was one of those kids who could get an A in every class without trying in gradeschool. Not cause I was a super-genius but because the subject matter was just so easy. I remember how annoyed I was being in 4th and 5th grade with kids who could barely read. I got to the point where it didn't matter anymore. I just sort of showed up at school and didn't really try. It was just a place I had to be a few hours every day and I still passed with no effort. It shouldn't have been that easy and I wish they would have taught me more.

We should be rewarding excellence not coddling incompetance.
 
I watched John Stossels show about public education, America ranks around 23rd.

He also mentioned what many of us also see, an increase in liberal ideology thru out public schools, another reason why parents want kids at home or in private schools. Say what you will, the left screwed up education, let the people teach not the government.

More public schools will require more juvinile and adult corrections facilities, plus massive expansion of welfare programs to pay for all the drop outs, and it looks like theirs alot comming from those public schools.

If we started pushing more vouchers and allowed private schools to flourish thet 23 would turn into 1.
Cut taxes and let parents take charge, BOOT the government out!
 
In high school, I played two sports, took five years of math, two of drafting, marched in a band, disected a pig, ran protein analysis using electrophoresis, participated in two academic competition programs, acted in three plays, was vice president of the student government, read Shakespeare, Whitman and Steinbeck, played sand volleyball and archery in gym, learned to type and won the art show.

My kids go to a private christian school. My oldest son plays one sport, went to the math olympics this year, plays in band, dissected a pig, acted in one play, reads literature, plays basketball and floor hockey in the gym, takes computer lab, won a blue ribbon in the school science project, and twice won first place for speed in pinewood derby at regionals with the affiliated cadets program.

As far as "electrophoresis", I don't recall even doing that in college. Handy, that may not equal your achievements yet, but my boy is just finishing the SIXTH grade this year. And ours is a small school. I fail to see the limitations.

We also don't have a pool, but neither did my large public high school. We have a "Y" membership for that.
 
O.K., guys, I wasn't REALLY serious about relating the capital punishment issue to the quality of education in a particular state, but, as capital punishment is one of my pet issues, generally don't think too highly of those states that don't offer that option.

Anecdotes about the achievements of extraordinary kids abound in public schools, private schools, and for homeschoolers. I spent a lot of time and energy raising my children, all of whom have become stellar adults...won't bore you with their achievements. Two attended excellent public schools; one attended both public and private; the fourth attended public school through the middle of the 4th grade, then went to private school.

I can, of course, only speak for myself. Although I personally received a great deal of my education from my father, that was primarily due to the fact that my father was a trained educator. I'd be the first to acknowledge that I'm not qualified to teach. I'm probably more intelligent and better educated than a vast majority of teachers, but I'm still not qualified to teach.

If the homeschoolers are using essentially the same curricula (or is that "ae"?), as are the private and public schools, then that seems fine to me. However, if the homeschoolers are using books that feature Bible verses mixed in with their math problems, and such truly gems of genius as, "if anybody ever tells you that the earth is millions of years old, don't believe them," or, "fossil fuels were caused virtually instanter by the pressures caused by the Great Flood of Noah's day," then, well, you know...so much for fairy tales.

My two grandchildren will be attending a private Christian school in the fall. School was founded by John Smoltz, Jeff Foxworthy, etc, etc, and is also supported by the Tiger Woods Foundation. Bet my grandchildren will do just fine!
 
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