TSA: "You have your law, I have mine."
- Thread starter progunner1957
- Start date
You have your law, I have mine
The sad part is if the terrorists are ever beaten down, eliminated or whatever the dang irritating rules will linger on and on because some dodo with a little authority deems it necessary though it won't be.
It isn't just airports where the little mindless nobodys push their weight around but what does one do?
The sad part is if the terrorists are ever beaten down, eliminated or whatever the dang irritating rules will linger on and on because some dodo with a little authority deems it necessary though it won't be.
It isn't just airports where the little mindless nobodys push their weight around but what does one do?
Lord_Nikon
New member
I flew to Florida about a month ago. Being my first time in a while, I checked the TSA's website to see if I could take a lighter onboard. According to the website, the day that I left, I could take up to three (Correction: two). Imagine my suprise when the guy who was screening me took both my lighters and, when I protested, got his friend to help him escort me to the security office. They asked me where I was going, what I was going to do there, etc. For a half-hour we sat in there, them telling me I could go if I gave up the lighters, me telling them to find a computer with an internet connection and demanding my $2 in lighters back. Finally, someone actually looked it up, and yes, you can take lighters on the plane. I was then escorted back to the concourse and left there, without so much as an appology.
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No doubt they'll try to legitimize it by some appalling extension of the Terry doctrine.
In the meantime, barely functionally trained people...get to grope women, pass gloved hands over lingerie...it's all a dysfunctionals dream job. About the only thing that can be said about it all...is that the porno industry might take a financial hit. People who'd be some of their better customers probably get all the fantasies they need at work.
In the meantime, no effective terrorist will be deterred, and what little lingering respect many of us might have for the US government, wafts away in the breeze.
In the meantime, barely functionally trained people...get to grope women, pass gloved hands over lingerie...it's all a dysfunctionals dream job. About the only thing that can be said about it all...is that the porno industry might take a financial hit. People who'd be some of their better customers probably get all the fantasies they need at work.
In the meantime, no effective terrorist will be deterred, and what little lingering respect many of us might have for the US government, wafts away in the breeze.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
USP, I do own and fly my own plane. TSA at every private airport in the US? Never gonna happen....it'd be like the Coast Guard checking every boat in every private marina around the nation. The manpower would be staggering, even for a bureaucracy with an unlimited budget.
Learning to fly in a C-130?????
Rich
novus collectus
Moderator
And that's the excuse they are going to use close down most of those airports. They are already making it almost impossible for the smaller or private airfields around the Washington D.C. area. There is serious talk of airfield closings. Even the oldest airport in the world is not safe from permanently being unused.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
novus-
Don't believe every crazy suggestion from ever crazy legislator you hear. Closing down a majority of city, county, feeder and private airports would send the economy reeling. Local economies will be hit hard in places; the General Aviation industry will all but cease to exist; the oil industry will be affected; business travel will be cut by a full order of magnitude; Banks, Federal Express, UPS.....you name it....they all depend on local, non-commercial airports nationwide.
Like I said, it's equivalent to attempting to regulate boat traffic in every private marina nationwide.
Rich
Don't believe every crazy suggestion from ever crazy legislator you hear. Closing down a majority of city, county, feeder and private airports would send the economy reeling. Local economies will be hit hard in places; the General Aviation industry will all but cease to exist; the oil industry will be affected; business travel will be cut by a full order of magnitude; Banks, Federal Express, UPS.....you name it....they all depend on local, non-commercial airports nationwide.
Like I said, it's equivalent to attempting to regulate boat traffic in every private marina nationwide.
Rich
How little people often remember.
Random Checks;
Remember those DUI sobriety checkpoints? Suits established that police cannot require only certain people to stop based on appearances -- i.e. people driving clapped-out Ford Mavericks or Toyota Corollas for example, or black male drivers or Hispanic drivers; or female drivers with other women in the car, etc. Stops have to be random to prevent racial/economic/gender biased "profiling".
Guess what? The same thing is being applied by the Government TSA Agents. Supposedly they must randomly select someone in the line and do their "check". Not too surprisingly if they see something "interesting" in your luggage they often miss what's in the metal tray.
Pre-9/11 I was often pulled aside and my briefcase checked. Took two weeks to find out why -- no electronics, just papers, pens and notebooks. When I got a laptop case to replace the briefcase the searches stopped. Go figure.
Last time I flew I broke my normal routine. Arrived early, had my last cig (bad habit I know) and went inside to buy a book or magazine to read. After that I headed to the gate and about 100 ft from the checkpoint I moved to the wall. There I followed my pre-9/11 routine. All metal items go into the small outside pocket of the carry-on. Keys, coins, lighter, cigs (metal foil inside), cellphone, pocket knife (1.8") and I then zip & lock it. Got to the metal detector and dumped the 2 cents I'd missed into the tray. No beep. But they pulled me aside as I claimed my baggage. A TSA agent spotted me "acting suspiciously by the wall." I explained I'm not a neophyte traveller and that by putting all metal in the carry-on they could x-ray it and I'd speed up the process. "Why do you want to 'speed up' the process? Do we work too slow for you? Do you think we're a bunch of postal employees? What are you hiding?" I waited a second since I hadn't expected an arrogant jerk. A cop was lurking at my 7 o'clock, discretely. "No, I don't want to incovenience others by being stupid; you guys are not looking for me so why make you waste time on me; thirdly nobody moves as slow as postal employees and last I'm not hiding anything; I simply want to sit down as soon as I can to save my knees." So he points to the bag, "If you're not hiding anything you won't mind putting the bag up here and opening it, will you?" Now I'm pissed. "I made a mistake." "What's that?" "I'm hiding my growing contempt for petty-minded government breaucrats who think someone trying to be mature and responsible about security should be punished for having a brain that works."
The look on his face -- priceless. He stepped towards my bag and the local airport cop stepped up and said, "G'wan through, sir. Have a nice flight." with such an amused grin on his face that I chuckled the whole flight.
Random Checks;
Remember those DUI sobriety checkpoints? Suits established that police cannot require only certain people to stop based on appearances -- i.e. people driving clapped-out Ford Mavericks or Toyota Corollas for example, or black male drivers or Hispanic drivers; or female drivers with other women in the car, etc. Stops have to be random to prevent racial/economic/gender biased "profiling".
Guess what? The same thing is being applied by the Government TSA Agents. Supposedly they must randomly select someone in the line and do their "check". Not too surprisingly if they see something "interesting" in your luggage they often miss what's in the metal tray.
Pre-9/11 I was often pulled aside and my briefcase checked. Took two weeks to find out why -- no electronics, just papers, pens and notebooks. When I got a laptop case to replace the briefcase the searches stopped. Go figure.
Last time I flew I broke my normal routine. Arrived early, had my last cig (bad habit I know) and went inside to buy a book or magazine to read. After that I headed to the gate and about 100 ft from the checkpoint I moved to the wall. There I followed my pre-9/11 routine. All metal items go into the small outside pocket of the carry-on. Keys, coins, lighter, cigs (metal foil inside), cellphone, pocket knife (1.8") and I then zip & lock it. Got to the metal detector and dumped the 2 cents I'd missed into the tray. No beep. But they pulled me aside as I claimed my baggage. A TSA agent spotted me "acting suspiciously by the wall." I explained I'm not a neophyte traveller and that by putting all metal in the carry-on they could x-ray it and I'd speed up the process. "Why do you want to 'speed up' the process? Do we work too slow for you? Do you think we're a bunch of postal employees? What are you hiding?" I waited a second since I hadn't expected an arrogant jerk. A cop was lurking at my 7 o'clock, discretely. "No, I don't want to incovenience others by being stupid; you guys are not looking for me so why make you waste time on me; thirdly nobody moves as slow as postal employees and last I'm not hiding anything; I simply want to sit down as soon as I can to save my knees." So he points to the bag, "If you're not hiding anything you won't mind putting the bag up here and opening it, will you?" Now I'm pissed. "I made a mistake." "What's that?" "I'm hiding my growing contempt for petty-minded government breaucrats who think someone trying to be mature and responsible about security should be punished for having a brain that works."
The look on his face -- priceless. He stepped towards my bag and the local airport cop stepped up and said, "G'wan through, sir. Have a nice flight." with such an amused grin on his face that I chuckled the whole flight.
perception
New member
I am a pilot working on my training and was planning on eventually getting an airline job. I almost don't know if I still want to pursue this course of action as the TSA has screwed things up so badly. I hate the TSA. Their knee-jerk reactions to September 11th have made things far more inconvenient and time consuming for everyone while not actually making things better in any way. My flight training has become a constant headache trying to jump through their hoops.
Garand Illusion
New member
As a guy who flys all the time for his job ...
Can't totally agree with all the statements here.
Like has been said, the signs at the airport are quite clear. You can refuse to be searched. To do so you must turn around and leave.
It was an interesting point about the TSA having less authority than the civilian airlines ... but I don't think it holds up. You don't have to submit to a search because you don't have to fly. Every time I enter a government compoound (especially a military base) I often have to submit to a basic search. And there are signs saying "by entering this facility you are agreeing that your vehicle and possessions can be searched at any time" or something to that effect.
I was always against the TSA, but before them airport security was a joke. I'm sure I could have smuggled a gun aboard if I would have wanted to. And I know that here in Denver the security people were paid just a few bucks over minimum wage -- incredible.
So I REALLY wished they would have fixed the problem just by hiring high quality civilians (i.e. paying $15 or more an hour and providing a real career track to keep good people in) but TSA is still better than it was. Like all government workers they never let themselves get hurried, and I've got to say I would be hard pressed to smuggle anything serious on board.
The only thing I hate is where they can't TELL you to take your shoes off before you go through the detector, but once you go through they can (and do) automatically have you step aside for a closer search if you're wearing your shoes.
So TSA is better than it was, but a more responsible private security would have been (IMHO) much more cost effective. I've had too much government contracting experience to believe the government can do anything very efficiently (except for maybe medicaid/medicare, but that OT and debatable).
Can't totally agree with all the statements here.
Like has been said, the signs at the airport are quite clear. You can refuse to be searched. To do so you must turn around and leave.
It was an interesting point about the TSA having less authority than the civilian airlines ... but I don't think it holds up. You don't have to submit to a search because you don't have to fly. Every time I enter a government compoound (especially a military base) I often have to submit to a basic search. And there are signs saying "by entering this facility you are agreeing that your vehicle and possessions can be searched at any time" or something to that effect.
I was always against the TSA, but before them airport security was a joke. I'm sure I could have smuggled a gun aboard if I would have wanted to. And I know that here in Denver the security people were paid just a few bucks over minimum wage -- incredible.
So I REALLY wished they would have fixed the problem just by hiring high quality civilians (i.e. paying $15 or more an hour and providing a real career track to keep good people in) but TSA is still better than it was. Like all government workers they never let themselves get hurried, and I've got to say I would be hard pressed to smuggle anything serious on board.
The only thing I hate is where they can't TELL you to take your shoes off before you go through the detector, but once you go through they can (and do) automatically have you step aside for a closer search if you're wearing your shoes.
So TSA is better than it was, but a more responsible private security would have been (IMHO) much more cost effective. I've had too much government contracting experience to believe the government can do anything very efficiently (except for maybe medicaid/medicare, but that OT and debatable).
novus collectus
Moderator
I beleive it. Maybe because I live in the D.C. are and I've seen the gov. paranoia about a hard to control general aviation industry (their thoughts)first hand. It is just the beginning in my mind and, as the expression goes, because 'I live in the beltway' I get a strong sentiment coming from the FAA, the Capitol and the White House that they are worried about general aviation and are itching to put it under strict control. If they can't control it they have a tendency to ban it or regulate it into near nonexitence. It is the knee-jerk-reaction, bureacratic way here. I could be wrong and I may be having a knee jerk reaction but like I said I've seen the airfields around here threatened with not being allowed to reopen and they used very unlikely terrorist possibilities as the reason. They can do it here they can sacrifice the industry nationwide albeit over a longer period of time.
You don't have to drive on public roads either. Do you give up your constitutional rights by doing so? There's a good reason to set up checkpoints everywhere: they might stop a car bomb, which as I understand it is one of the threats the government is most worried about.
I doubt that federal buildings count as public spaces, but denying firearms in government buildings is still unconstitutional unless there's a valid reason -- at courthouses with real security measures, for instance. Still, we've just recently seen two examples of how effective courthouse security measures are: they're not. Either violence takes place outside of the courthouse, or guns carried by "special people" inside the courthouse are snatched. So while it might be constitutional to deny guns in limited areas like courthouses, it's not particularly good at preventing violence. It just shifts violence elsewhere.
Military bases are different for a lot of reasons. They are in no way public property. They're also arguably unconstitutional (as they house a standing army/navy), but that's neither here nor there...
novus collectus
Moderator
I must use Washington D.C. again as an example. The Library of Congress is open to the public and they use metal detectors, x-ray machines and wands. The Smithsonian museums are not government and they do so as well but without as many x-ray machines. The Mall in D.C. where the Lincoln Memorial is in has events where they search everyone coming into the public space. When they have an alert in Washington the parts that arent even federal property is subject to road blocks and vehicle searches. Certain parts of D.C. have constant searches of panel trucks. During the innauguration in the name of public safety people that lived even 6-10 blocks from federal property were accosted and questioned and sometimes searched. And they lived there!!! They were breaking no laws at the time. If you have a problem with airport security then don't come to Washington. Except for the musuems and federal buildings, this doesn't happen everyday but you may be treated like a criminal just because you're walking down the street. Hell, I almost got arrested (in the name of security) because I was just walking within a block of a protest that I had nothing to do with. If there is a constutional precedent to prevent searches in public places without reasonable beleif that a law is being commited then they ignore it in Washington D.C.. If they think it is normal in the place where they make our laws then they will think they (the lawmakers in D.C.) can do the same in the airport in your home town.
novus collectus
Moderator
And the same goes for their attitude towards general aviation.
beware!!!
beware!!!
shootinstudent
New member
Question for everyone:
What do you all think would be an acceptable airport search policy? Is there a search policy that would provide an acceptable level of safety without random searches?
What do you all think would be an acceptable airport search policy? Is there a search policy that would provide an acceptable level of safety without random searches?
novus collectus
Moderator
A machine that read our thoughts as soon as we walked through the door of the airport.
