TSA: "You have your law, I have mine."

So if the government starts posting signs that searches are to be expected on public highways, that's okay because we're on notice?

Do you really think airports and the Whitehouse are subject to the same 4th amendment restrictions on searches?

You're absolutely right; the constitution is not a suicide pact. That's why the interpretation that anything goes in the realm of of searches and anti-terror efforts needs to be revised. Another 9/11 will not destroy the country. Government reaction to another 9/11 might.
 
Another 9/11 will not destroy the country. Government reaction to another 9/11 might.
Yes. And if we include innaction to that as well we are even that much closer.

This thread has gone a long time and I know I said it already, but we need an alternative to the situation and not to find excuses for it. The government promised us that this would not be a permanent situation and that they would replace it with a better, less intrusive way to keep airplanes secure. Because we are afraid of another attack, gotten used to the current system the longer it is place, and have had a blind faith in the government, we are going down a perilous road to losing our private rights in public.

The reaction the government has had has allowed the FBI to search our home without a judge's review and without letting us know they were even there. If we do find out our homes were searched, then we cannot even complain in a court of law because it is declared a government secret (I do not wear tin foil hats and I am not exagerating, this has been true since the Patriot act).

Frank,
It is imperative that we are safe from another terrorist attack. What do you think about what I said above? Would you let the FBI search your house without a judge signing a warrant and without even telling you in the name of our nations security? I can guess that you would say "of course not and besides, that is different", but the whole idea to my opposition to TSA searching us in the name of national security and the gov. failing to find an alternative by now, is that I see all of our personal rights going the way of the dodo in the near future. We should be appalled at the invasions of our personal space wherever they occur. Some invasions may be necessary and some I tolerate (for convenience and/or out of laziness or cowardice to object) but there should have been a line draw a looooonggg time ago so that we do not become complacent in fighting for what we grew up believing in.

One time we used to look down on China, North Korea, U.S.S.R. and the Easter Block for their oppressive searches. What happened?? Bin Laden is now laughing at us because he DID change this country and made us forget in our belief in bountiful freedom.
 
That FrankDrebin guy sure is persistent. Doesn't change the fact that he's wrong. Completely wrong.

The fourth amendment protects our pre-existing right to be free of searches by the government without a proper warrant, period.

Absolutely not. Even a conservative, literal reading of the 4th. amendment says that 1. There will be no unreasonable searches, and 2. Warrants will not issue without probable cause. It absolutely does NOT say you need a warrant to search. And I believe if the framers wanted you to read it "No searches without a warrant" they would have written it "no searches without a warrant".

Would you care to address the other point? Why are searches permissible at all, since they are not narrow enough to reveal only contraband? Caselaw (Kyllo, reiterated in Souter's dissent in Caballes) seems to be consistent in that there has to be articulable suspicion for any search that has the capacity to reveal presence of legal items.

You keep bringing up this "narrow enough......only contraband" thing....That has nothing to do with airline searches. The "..only contraband" thing pertained to why it was OK to develop probable cause for drugs with the dog. You don't NEED probable cause for administrative and other searches, so the "....only contraband" thing is not relevent in those cases unless a dog was used to find either explosives or drugs in a situation where probable cause WAS needed and was based, at least in part, on what the dog did. Dog's can not talk very well. If they could, they could say "There's cheeseburgers in there!!! There's cheesburgers in there!" or "There's weed in there!!" Since they can't they can only use dogs that will hit a certain way on contraband if they're to be used for probable cause for a search. People, on the other hand, can, even if only in broken English, can say "Hmmm, look like gun!" or "Hmmm, look like vibrator!". That's why you can use people who can spot things other than just contraband, as opposed to a dog, for the airline searches.

So if the government starts posting signs that searches are to be expected on public highways, that's okay because we're on notice?

Depends. If the public's right to be free from whatever they were searching for outweighed the searchee's right to be free from the presumably minimal intrusion, and there was an acceptable chance of finding what they were looking for with the searches, then yes, they'd be legal. Also, the searches must not be arbitrary, and the legality of the searches has nothing to do with wheter or not they put signs up on the road. If the government found terrorists through that type of search as often as they found drunk drivers with checkpoints, FOR EXAMPLE, that wuold be legal. If the intrusion on the motorists was too great, the chance of catching whoever they were looking for too small, or the searches arbitrary, then they would be improper. The searches wouldn't be OK simply because you were "on notice" although, in most states, you do not have a right to refuse a breathalyzer test because you ARE put "on notice" (implied consent) when you get your license.

Frank,
It is imperative that we are safe from another terrorist attack. What do you think about what I said above? Would you let the FBI search your house without a judge signing a warrant and without even telling you in the name of our nations security?

The government already CAN search my house without a warrant under many other circumstances unrelated to terrorist attack. I wouldn't give them consent to search though. I wouldn't even give them consent if they said it was in the name of our nation's security.

I used to have an FFL license. The government could come into my house anytime they wanted to to do an administrative search. There was implied consent to search when I applied for the license. Same thing when you buy an airline ticket.

Here's something else to think about. If you're relying on YOUR strict interpretation of the constitution (because obviously, we all have different ideas of what the framers meant), what do you legally do if the government DOES do a bunch of illegal searches, as happens sometimes???? Can you show me anywhere in the constitution where it says that unlawfully obtained evidence must be excluded at trial? There IS no exclusionary rule in the constitution. It evolved through case law just like bunch of other rules that restrict the government that aren't rights. The Miranda Warning is another example. You don't have a RIGHT to be advised of your rights. You can't take just the case law you agree with and throw out the cases you don't agree with.

One time we used to look down on China, North Korea, U.S.S.R. and the Easter Block for their oppressive searches.

Was that you who did one of those little "[sic]" thingies when you quoted one of my posts with a typo/spelling error????
 
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I hope it will take a few more years before that happens, at least until my kids are no longer my responsibility, because I don't expect to live long once it does.

So, there's an armed robbery on your way to work. You didn't do it, but the police get a description that matches you and your car to the extent that they have reasonable suspicion, not even probable cause, to stop and search you and your car. You're telling me that you're going to shoot it out with the cops who already think they may be dealing with a hold-up man because they crossed your "line in the sand"? Please.
 
You're telling me that you're going to shoot it out with the cops who already think they may be dealing with a hold-up man because they crossed your "line in the sand"? Please.
The police do things all the time (not in the name of the constitution though AFAIK) that are "over the line". If they think you are a suspect and arrest you or if they try to search you improperly it is considered (at least in my state) an assault and you have the legal right to defend yourself within reason (like knocking him on his @ss) as long as you are not guilty of course or found guilty.

Frank D. you have my respect for your perseverance as well and I have to admit your resolve is wearing down mine. You are making a lot of good points. But what I said above about our complacency as a society to allow more and more invasions of our privacy (be it personal or in our homes) is being eroded more and more. I don't like it, and just like those who think our country's morals are worse now than in the past, I feel that this country has lost the freedoms that made me feel good about it over time as well.
Was that you who did one of those little "[sic]" thingies when you quoted one of my posts with a typo/spelling error????
This thread has been going on for a long time and if someone else used the communist parrallel then I figured I paraphrased it (I hope). And if you are talking about the use of "sic" then I must admit that I didn't even know what that was until two weeks ago and I have !never! used it. I do not know how to use it properly yet and I probably would not anyway. When I use the "quote" thing that is incorporated in this website, I use the origional phraseing and speelling unchanged.
 
FrankDrebin:
So, there's an armed robbery on your way to work. You didn't do it, but the police get a description that matches you and your car to the extent that they have reasonable suspicion, not even probable cause, to stop and search you and your car. You're telling me that you're going to shoot it out with the cops who already think they may be dealing with a hold-up man because they crossed your "line in the sand"? Please.
Of course not. A roadblock as a response to a real crime makes sense to me. As long as they were open with me that I matched the description of the perpetrator of a recent crime, I would cooperate with them.

I was talking about the establishment of regular roadside checkpoints, stopping everybody regularly, just to check on them. I already have a problem with the holiday booze checks and the occasional registration and inspection sticker checks that I encounter. But, so far, they are occasional enough that I can live with it. If they become too frequent, however, if they establish state border checks, for example (I live a mile from the NY/MA border), I will have to do what I can to stop them, not during a search, when they already have the upper hand, but later, when I can sneak up on them.

I'm glad I don't live closer to Canada, or I might have been prodded into action already. The goons now have a regular checkpoint about 75 miles south of the border on interstate 87. Caused some bad accidents until the sheeple got used to them being there.

One of my biggest problems with this airport sekurity thing is that it's all based on secret law. You can't get anybody to show you the law authorizing the requirement to show identification to travel (see http://papersplease.org/gilmore/)

Back when they started the occasional seach of automobiles entering the Albany airport, I wrote email to their info line asking whether they would have a problem with it if they found the rifle I carry, legally, in my trunk. The answer was that they couldn't tell me that; doing so would be a security hazard. (insert appropriate curse here).

Shaggy is probably correct that FrankDerbin is only telling us the current state of the "law" in Amerika. Well, if that is indeed the case, you can take your "law" and stuff it. I withdraw my consent.
 
Depends. If the public's right to be free from whatever they were searching for outweighed the searchee's right to be free from the presumably minimal intrusion...
Frank, here's the problem.

The public HAS NO RIGHT to be free from terrorists or other criminals with nuclear weapons, terrorists or criminals with guns on planes, terrorists or criminals with ANFO bombs in SUVs, etc.

In order to actually DO something about those things, our government needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause. (I won't go on a tirade against reasonable suspicion in this thread.)
 
The public HAS NO RIGHT to be free from terrorists or other criminals with nuclear weapons, terrorists or criminals with guns on planes, terrorists or criminals with ANFO bombs in SUVs, etc.

How am I supposed to enjoy my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness if I know that any wacko or terrorist who wants to can bring a gun, bomb or poison gas onboard the pressurized tube in which I'm confined with them because they know they won't be searched while getting on board unless they give the government probable cause to search them?

The public has no right to be protected from armed robbers. Does that mean the police shouldn't use all legal means at their disposal to prevent armed robberies?

In order to actually DO something about those things, our government needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause. (I won't go on a tirade against reasonable suspicion in this thread.)

Not in the cases of administrative searches, border searches or consent searches.
 
A couple of things...
(Kyllo, reiterated in Souter's dissent in Caballes)
Souter's point being, that the legality of a search should not be contingent upon what the search reveals, rather the search should be subject to the manner in which it was conducted. That was the point of my original post on this subject. Both Souter and Ginsburg reasoned that without an articulable reasonable suspicion (ARS), a traffic stop can not be expanded to include anything else.

However, the majority of the Court held with Illinois and the expansion of powers first used in US v Jacobsen, in 1984. Remember, under the rules of Judicial Review, the Constitution says what the Court interprets it to say (Marbury v Madison).

The Federal government has a mandate to regulate interestate commerce, but not to protect interstate travel.
No. there is no "mandate." What there is, is a specific power granted to Congress for the regulation of international and interstate commerce. Nothing is written that the Congress must utilize this authority. (we could go on about the abuse of the word "commerce" [see Filburn v. Wickard]... But that is another thread)

Shootinstudent, there is no such thing as the government having a compelling interest in anything dealing with our rights. The term was coined by the government to circumvent just those restrictions placed upon it by the Constitution and the BoR. Once the Court allowed such an excuse, the government has gone on to use it to expand its regulatory (and subsequent police) powers, far beyond anything that was ever envisioned by the Founders.

There is another side to the Compelling Interest issue that many may have forgotten. Most, if not all, of these excuses use the Peoples (as in, the collective) Right to be secure, as their reasoning. Individuals have rights. Governments have authorities and powers. There is no such thing as a "collective right" except as it deals with corporations. A corporate entity is the only ficticious "person" that was recognized by common law as having rights. Yet, even a corporation has no more rights than I, as a private person. However, the government argued that the "Corporate Body of the People" was said to have superior rights than an individual person. That is the fiction that the government sold to the Courts. (And some of you wonder where the gun control crowd got this from?) And the Courts have bought it.

I have an innate right to walk down the streets of America, unmolested by government intrusion. In this, I have a reasonable expectation of privacy, by the very anonymity of my stroll. Contrary to what the Courts say, the Corporate Body Politic has no right to interfere with my stroll... Unless and until I commit an offense of the law, I may not be interfered with.

An airlines company is generally a corporation. They have the right to search me and my baggage, should I wish to partake of their services. All of this stops, however, when the airline becomes an agent of the government... Such as federalization of the airlines by Federal regulation via the commerce clause. Differnet rules then apply.

All searches should be reasonable and equal in nature. Search everyone or search no one, except by probable cause, supported by affidavit and the issuance of a warrant. Further, to search only the person and their carry-on baggage, without doing the equal search on their stowed baggage is unreasonable... If one could carry a destructive device, so could the other. To randomly detain individuals for a more extensive search without even having ARS is unreasonable. (my whole point of bringing up Caballes was that this is no longer true!)

Law that is predicated upon what I might do, is thought control. No more, no less.

And Frank, there should be no such thing as "administrative searches." I am a private citizen, not part of some government bureau. Another word that has drastically changed in meaning!

The reality of day to day life in America is however, as Frank has described.
 
Souter's point being, that the legality of a search should not be contingent upon what the search reveals, rather the search should be subject to the manner in which it was conducted.

To the best of my knowledge, the legality of a search has never been contingent upon what was found, if anything.
 
How am I supposed to enjoy my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness if I know that any wacko or terrorist who wants to can bring a gun, bomb or poison gas onboard the pressurized tube in which I'm confined with them because they know they won't be searched while getting on board unless they give the government probable cause to search them?
Maybe you can't. Feel free to flee to another country if Freedom is too scary for you.

The public has no right to be protected from armed robbers. Does that mean the police shouldn't use all legal means at their disposal to prevent armed robberies?
It means you can't weigh the imaginary "right to be safe" against the 4th amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches. Searches cannot become reasonable simply because you want to be safe. If LE can't catch terrorists and violent criminals by developing RS or PC first, too bad. That's the cost of freedom, and if you don't like it feel free to take a one-way trip across the Atlantic.

There are certain places, e.g. the border, where PC and RS don't apply, and the government should take full advantage of them. It makes me sick that people like you want me to give up some of my freedoms when the government is not preventing illegals and probably terrorists from crossing the U.S.-Mexico border at will. You want to cut down on terror risks? Start with the things that are least abrasive to my liberties, and if it turns out more is necessary I might be less antagonistic toward a government-mandated search of passengers boarding a privately owned and operated aircraft.

Antipitas, I agree I may have mischaracterized it as a mandate, but in the founding era I think all of the Legislative powers were expected to be used since most of them addressed specific deficiencies of the Articles.
 
I give up, you're right. Anyone who can buy a ticket should be able to get on a plane without being subject to having his luggage searched unless the police have a warrant or probable cause because people don't have a constitutional right to be safe.
 
Absolutely... the FDA has no constitutional power to inspect food (maybe state health agencies do). When news of that leaks, the hotdog company would go out of business very quickly.
 
Absolutely... the FDA has no constitutional power to inspect food (maybe state health agencies do). When news of that leaks, the hotdog company would go out of business very quickly.

I deleted that part pending a better example...But I think an airline would go out of business if it became known that anyone who didn't exude probable cause to believe he had a bomb in his carry-on would be allowed to board unsearched. I certainly wouldn't fly that airline, and neither would most people. Not to imply that they or their sharholders have a right to be in business in the first place.

I think people absolutely have a right to be safe. I DON'T think they have a right to police protection, not to say that that police/government don't have a duty to protect.
 
I doubt it, if the press actually bothered to publish articles considering both sides of the issue. I don't think anyone will ever be able to stop suicide bombers, because they have nothing to lose. The easiest way to prevent all other bombings is to keep luggage with its owner. Suicide hijackers won't be tolerated by other passengers anymore. What exactly is your threat model?

However, not x-raying checked luggage is an extreme. I don't think that's what has us all annoyed. I think if security were privatized, scanning checked luggage would continue. What wouldn't continue is abuse of passengers and their carry-on luggage. Some of us may want an airline that allows guns onboard, but most of us would tolerate a pre-9/11 level of searches.

Shouldn't the airlines be free to make that choice and go out of business? That's the entire point. Airport screening should not be a government-run security operation, and everyone would have a lot more toleration for BS if it wasn't mandated by the government.

I think people absolutely have a right to be safe.
I've been avoiding dragging out the tired old Franklin quote, though it's most appropriate. I don't know where you get your philosophy, but it's of non-democratic origin. You want someone more powerful than yourself (the government, the Crown) to protect you from the evils of the world. This is the United States; there is not supposed to be anyone more powerful than the individual (private) citizen. Society can search or seize an individual only when there's clear suspicion that the individual has violated the social contract.

That the courts have, in recent years, engaged in activism trying to give the government more powers -- so they can deal with the War on Crime, War on Guns, War on Drugs, and most recently the War on Terror -- does not mean they or you are correct.
 
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