TSA: "You have your law, I have mine."

Because I think it's too intrusive to be reasonable under the circumstances, although with probable cause I would believe it to be reasonable with a warrant.
That's just an arbitrary, personal distinction - worthy of no more consideration than the opinions of those here who think a TSA agent searching their possessions or person without a warrant is unreasonable.

Beyond your personal opinion, on what legal grounds do you base the idea that TSA personnel - acting as agents of the federal government - conducting unwarranted searches of people and their possessions is okay but unwarranted body cavity searches under the same circumstances are wrong?
 
Beyond your personal opinion, on what legal grounds do you base the idea that TSA personnel - acting as agents of the federal government - conducting unwarranted searches of people and their possessions is okay but unwarranted body cavity searches under the same circumstances are wrong?

If a search is "unwarranted" it shouldn't be done at all. Did you perhaps mean "warrantless"? How much 4th Amendment case law have you read? Whether a warrantless search is reasonable or not is based on the level of intrusiveness into a protected area, and how long the detention for the search is. What is being searched, what is being searched for, why it's being searched for, how much time is available to search, where the person or item to be searched can be expected to be if the agents of the government submit an affidavit for a warrant, who's doing the searching, the likelyhood that the item they're searching for will be found, the consequences of not searching, and many other things.

I'm not ready to tell people they can fly without being potentially searched because some people were improperly searched.

That's just an arbitrary, personal distinction - worthy of no more consideration than the opinions of those here who think a TSA agent searching their possessions or person without a warrant is unreasonable.

I don't have the time to quote the case law for you on what is and what isn't a reasonable search. I don't think you've read much 4th amendment case law, and with that in mind, I don't think you're in a position to be the arbiter of what is arbitrary on my part and what is based on the law as it now stands.
 
Frank, I'm sure you will forgive me for disagreeing with, and along with you, our Supreme Court.

Before 1984, a "search" was traditionally defined as the method and how it was conducted. Starting in 1984, with United States v. Jacobsen, this traditional definition began to be turned around. Emphasis was placed on the contents of the search and not on the means and manner of the search. With the kind of searches the TSA provide, it is no wonder that this has culminated with the ruling in Illinois v. Caballes. Wherein it is in fact the fruit of the search that becomes the very definition of what constitutes a search.

Since the TSA is looking for contraband, that you have no right to possess, no inherent property rights to claim and therfore no expectation of privacy, these are no longer searches by the (new) legal definition.

Sort of the cart before the horse, but there you have it. And of course, you agree with this convoluted reasoning. Sorry to tell you, many, if not most of us still believe that a search is the means and manner v. the object thereof. Despite what the SCOTUS has ruled.

Some of us do understand and have read case law. And some of us don't agree with the direction this is all headed. And some of us won't fly because of these things. Currently, that is still our right.

But please, simply because we disagree with current legalistic theories, do not tell us we don't understand what we are talking about.
 
Antipatis,
Since the TSA is looking for contraband, that you have no right to possess, no inherent property rights to claim and therfore no expectation of privacy, these are no longer searches by the (new) legal definition.

Thank you for pointing the above out... I guess George Orwell had the year wrong... :( :eek:

I mean if you are not doing anything wrong you dont have anything to worry about.... Correct? :confused:

I am scared for my kids...
 
Frank, I'm sure you will forgive me for disagreeing with, and along with you, our Supreme Court.

Before 1984, a "search" was traditionally defined as the method and how it was conducted.

Nothing to forgive. A search was, for the past 20 years at least, and is, defined as an agent of the government looking for something in an area protected by the 4th. amendment.

Some of us do understand and have read case law. And some of us don't agree with the direction this is all headed. And some of us won't fly because of these things. Currently, that is still our right.

An area of 4th amendment protection is absolutely not defined by what the government is seaching for.

Since the TSA is looking for contraband, that you have no right to possess, no inherent property rights to claim and therfore no expectation of privacy, these are no longer searches by the (new) legal definition.

It does not follow that because the TSA is looking for contraband, what they are doing is not a search.
 
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Consent of the Oppressed

It is amazing watching some of these people rationalize tyranny. Treating a man like a criminal, in front of his wife and kids, guilty until proven innocent, is wrong. Period. It is un-American. Period.

People who rationalize this horrible TSA behavior and parade around these forums like self-righteous "Good Germans" are a tyrant's dream.

Unfortunately, it's human nature for people to slit their own throats if their leaders convince them "it's the right thing to do". When all is said and done, even tyrants rule by consent of the people.

As for me, I drive. Meek submission is for foreigners, not American citizens.
 
Consent of the Oppressed

Two distinct types emerge when something like this happens in a free society:

The brave take a stand and boycott the airlines.

The cowards blame the victim.
 
Done.

Martin Luther said:

"Treating a man like a criminal, in front of his wife and kids, guilty until proven innocent, is wrong. Period. It is un-American. Period."

FrankDrebin challenged:

"Care to be specific?"

You're on:

Treating any citizen as a criminal, whether in public, in front of family members or in private, in the utter absence of a warrant or probable cause, and especially as a matter of course, is both un-American and wrong. Period.

Care to respond?
 
No response? Try explaining THIS!

Obnoxious personnel, invasive searches, theft and sexual assault - all funded with our tax dollars. I feel SO much safer....... :barf:

AP: Airport Screeners' Quality Still Poor
By LESLIE MILLER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Two upcoming government reports will show the quality of screening at airports is no better now than before the Sept. 11 attacks, according to a House member who has been briefed on the contents.

The Government Accountability Office - the investigative arm of Congress - and the Homeland Security Department's inspector general are expected to soon release their findings on the performance of Transportation Security Administration screeners.

"A lot of people will be shocked at the billions of dollars we've spent and the results they're going to see, which confirm previous examinations of the Soviet-style screening system we've put in place," Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., told The Associated Press on Friday.

Mica chairs the House aviation subcommittee and was briefed on the reports.

Improving the ability of screeners to find dangerous items has been the goal since the government took over the task at about 450 airports in early 2002 and hired more than 45,000 workers. But earlier investigations showed problems persist.

On Jan. 26, Homeland Security's acting inspector general, Richard Skinner, testified that "the ability of TSA screeners to stop prohibited items from being carried through the sterile areas of the airports fared no better than the performance of screeners prior to Sept. 11, 2001."

Skinner told the Senate Homeland Security Committee that the reasons the screeners failed undercover audits had to do with training, equipment, management and policy.

A year ago, Clark Kent Ervin, then-inspector general of Homeland Security, told lawmakers the TSA screeners and privately contracted airport workers "performed about the same, which is to say, equally poorly."

When Congress created the TSA it stipulated that privately employed screeners be used at five airports to serve as a measuring stick for the federal screeners.

Screeners are tested by the inspector general's undercover agents, who try to smuggle fake weapons and bombs past security checkpoints. Their performance also is measured by the Threat Image Projection system, which puts images of threat objects on X-ray screens while the screeners are working and identifies whether they identify the threats.

Oregon Rep. Peter DeFazio, the ranking Democrat on Mica's subcommittee, also was briefed on the two upcoming reports. He said they draw different conclusions about the relative performance of government screeners and those who work for private companies.

"The common finding is that no set of screeners, private nor public, is performing anywhere near the level I think we need," DeFazio said.

Screener performance won't be acceptable "until these people have state-of-the-art technology," he said.

DeFazio is especially critical of the X-ray machines used to screen passengers' baggage in most airports. Much better equipment is already available and in use on Capitol Hill and in the White House, he said.

The TSA, which did not immediately return telephone calls seeking comment, has said in the past that the tests used to measure screener performance are much more rigorous than they were before the Sept. 11 hijackings.

Before the attacks, the Threat Image Projection system only used images of about 200 items. Now the TSA uses 2,400 images.

Screeners have been much more aggressive about seizing prohibited items than their predecessors, the private screeners who worked for companies employed by airlines. Each month, screeners take from passengers about a half-million things, including 160,000 knives, 2,000 box cutters and 70 guns.

___

On the Net:

Transportation Security Administration: http://www.tsa.gov



Copyright 2005 Associated Press.
 
Thanks Number 6.

Nothing will change until more people boycott the airlines, and we see big name airlines go under.

Until then, I drive, and encourage my friends and acquaintances to do the same. Freedom demands sacrifice...

I'm left scratching my head at some of my conservative friends who say "Well, they're jes doin' their job". Unbelievable.

Where's the hunger for Liberty?
 
TSA: You have your law, I have mine.

You can chalk this Airport/Police State to a couple of things, one being the sub human terrorists who flew Airliners into buildings.

And though necessary, the always overkill of they who make the rules to protect us from those foreign troglodytes.

My last Airline Flight was so long ago I could and did legally carry a Ruger MK1 with magazine out and no round in chamber, the magazine and several boxes of ammo in my brief case right above my seat.

Flying is now too much hassle and I drive everywhere even with expensive fuel costs.
 
And legal, warrantless searches are not unamerican.



Frank, care to be specific?

I already explainedj, many posts ago, why and how certain warrantless searches are not unconstitutional and were never meant to be. The Constitution does not prohibit warrantless searches or searches without probable cause. And I'm not going any further along these lines until #6 tells me what "treating them like criminals" means specifically.
 
Consent of the Oppressed

I already explainedj [sic], many posts ago, why and how certain warrantless searches are not unconstitutional and were never meant to be.

Frank, part of being specific means you include examples in your argument, not abstract references.
 
Frank, part of being specific means you include examples in your argument, not abstract references.

I believe the post where I posted the 4th amendment in its entirety and how I see that applying to certain searches covers the "specific" angle. And I'm pretty sure that the definition of "specific" doesn't include the need for examples.
 
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