The more I read this stuff, the more a couple things come through: Unless you are Ross Seyfried, your chances of maintaining accurate shot placement diminishes considerably the more the target shoots at you.
Humans are NOT easy to stop, since the only sure stop is a head, or spine shot. The head tends to bob and move, and, that's why body, or COM shots are more likely to stop the attacker, because they actually HIT the attacker. Pick a target you can hit, but, that target may not be the one you need for a quick stop.
Also, hands and arms seem to get in the way, as a consistent matter, and problem, screwing up the 'perfect penetration' levels required by the FBI and the Big 3 ammo makers.
Second, that's exactly the WRONG lesson to learn from that anecdote. The RIGHT lesson is that if you don't hit a determined attacker in the right place you will run out of ammunition (or die) before you get them to stop. Doesn't matter if the bullet exits or not, doesn't matter if the bullets penetrate 14" or 24", doesn't matter if the bullets are .36" or .50" in diameter.
Using hunting examples is SO different from a self-defense scenario, or LEO situation, most of the time, well, it's apples to oranges. It's real easy to sit there and place your shot, if the animal isn't charging, or, it isn't shooting at you:
If you hit something slightly off target, or not perfect placement, which seems to happen about 99% of the time in SD shootings, it wouldn't hurt to have a little more horsepower.
Watch the difference in gello between a 22, 38, and .44 magnum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDzKfKX_yw&NR=1
That said, from these tests, it certainly appears no benefit from larger calibers, 9mm to 45 ACP, since they all are close enough that the statistical variance is irrelevant:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm
But, this thread was about the 45 ACP being equal to the .357 magnum. My point is both are inadequate in penetration, most of the time. They can both be loaded so that the chance of bullet deflection, and penetration are adequate, but, most of the time, they are not.
I am convinced that the statistical variance in energy going into the target is close enough that it's irrelevant.
In other words, with both calibers, on humans, you need shot placement and penetration. Now, given the difficulty of a true CNS hit on a human, a bullet combination that goes through the target, leaving two holes for the target to bleed out, along with a longer wound channel is going to be superior to a shorter wound channel, with only one hole.
Doesn't matter if the bullet exits or not, doesn't matter if the bullets penetrate 14" or 24", doesn't matter if the bullets are .36" or .50" in diameter.
Here, you are just flat out wrong. It's huge. If I'm hit in one shoulder, and, you disable one arm, but that 125 grain wonder 9mm only goes 9 inches in, and stops, I've still got my other arm to shoot with. Given the same shot with 24" of penetration, I loose the ability to loose either arm, with two broken shoulder sockets, and, a much higher probablility of my heart being gone as well.
I'm now out of the fight.
As for JD Jones and the hand cannon boys, there is a simple reason they say this. 300 grains is about the maximum you can shoot in a hand cannon. When you start getting over this, the recoil affects accuracy. So, he, Reeder, all those single shot guys tend to settle on a .375 caliber, 250-300 grain bullet around 2000 fps.
Using Karamojo Bell as an advocate of light fast in incorrect. He used light recoiling, high SD bullets, solids, that penetrated incredibly well. This, combined with his incredible shooting ability, knowledge of elephant anatomy, accounted for over 10k elephants. 7 x57, etc.
Also, he took many shots from long range, not sporting ranges, and, his success was increased if the herd didn't run off. If he missed, the little needle he was using for a bullet would go right through, not leaving a substantial wound in the elephant. He was also incredibly lucky, living through a over a million cape buffalo charge twice, on a 4" sapling, in the middle of a naked plain.
Also, lumping 'magnums' all together is garbage. Most guys that hunt aren't going to the range with their magnum and find the ideal bullet for what they are after, and, ideal loads. They go buy a box of factory ammo, barely site the rifle in, and go hunting. They have jobs, so they don't shoot a ton. Shooting magnum rifles from the bench is not usually an enjoyable experience, and, with expensive ammo, not something I see happening a lot.
Have a friend in Texas with a ranch. He has a hog problem. He reloads, and, his hog rifle is a .505 Gibbs.
He's NEVER had one run off, shoots carefully, and has a 100% one shot stop record. He can take shots others can't, in particular Texas Heart shots. Something about a
4 foot long, .70 caliber bullet channel, that's an expanded soft point in .505 Gibbs, that just anchors those hogs on the spot...never recovers a bullet, has two big holes...
And yes, it is possible to kill deer, anchoring them in their tracks, not hitting anything vital. A 400 grain XTP .475 @ 1350 fps missed everything vital, going ham to nose, and exiting, but, it was enough for the deer to fall over, dead.
Now, back to the topic:
Nov/Dec 2007 American Handgunner.
J.D. Jones Handgun Hunting "More is Better"
An accurately placed shot with a .357 loaded with an appropriate load is far more effective than a gut shot or a miss with a .45-70.
This is what happens when you get old. You can't shoot big guns as well, so you make up for it with accuracy and shot placement.
That's like Lee Jurras telling me he one shot stopped an elk. Sure, he neck shot it with a .44 magnum 185 grain HP at 1900 fps.
I'll say it again: both the .357 and the 45 ACP provide options to load so that they will both penetrate enough to end a conflict with a human. I believe that requires two holes, and an exit wound. If loaded to do that, they are equal. If they are loaded with light, under-penetrating bullets they are both similar as well, likely to get you killed.
The Case capacity of .45 ACP is 25 grains of H20. Anyone have the .357 magnum case capacity?
In fact the .40 S&W with 165 grain and 180 projectiles also significantly out performs all .357 loadings. Also the .45 ACP and .40 S&Ws are much more rapidly fired and the pistols they are fired in are much more rapidly reloaded, than .357 revolvers.
