Trying to Clear up the 45 ACP is equal to the .357 Magnum--myth or fact????

So, my question is this: by what basis do people base there assertions when they say the 45 ACP is = the .357 Magnum?

First off let me say that I've not heard or read alot (actually anybody) say that the two rounds are equal. I have heard many say that both can be equally effective calibers for self defense. This is a statement I agree with.

So Aqeus where have you heard this? I haven't heard it and I been around a little bit.

Both are versatile rounds but both are quite different.

Contrary to what some believe and state the .357 was first intended to be a hunting round and was marketed as such. S&W did not believe that it would sell all that well and so when they introduced it in the .357 Magnum N frame revolver they planned limited production. Each gun was registered to it's owner and came with a signed formal statement with the owners name on it. These guns are the very valuable today pre-war registered magnums. But the round and the guns caught on.

You can stick the .357 in a levergun and it does very well. No one makes a levergun for the .45 acp.

No one has placed the .357 in a Thompson machine gun, which is home to the .45 acp.

So they are different rounds, as folks have said here, born for different reasons.

Both are about equally effective as stoppers in the right platform (meaning gun), with a load matched to the task, and provided proper shot placement. Both can blow bits of internal matter into the street. Both, by the way, can smash bone and dislocate a shoulder leaving nothing but muscle and tendon keeping it attached to the body. Which maybe where the story came from. And both have been known not to stop a fella.

tipoc
 
Honestly, they are both two of my favorite cartridges, handload for both and think they are about equal in the usefullness category, with the .357 maybe nudging out the .45 because it can be a hunting round. I usually carry .357 while camping and the .45 during everyday carry. I like the different platforms that I have for each caliber, that comes into play when I decide what to carry too. 6" 686+ or one of several 1911s. So, honestly, I think it is a wash.
 
BikerRN said:
The .357 Magnum with it's 125 Grain loading is still the "King of the Street" that all rounds are compared to. The difference between different rounds has been narrowed over the years due to advancements in bullet technology. Back when I first started carrying a gun the best 9mm HP's would get you in to the "high 80's" as far as one shot stopping percentages. Now that caliber is in the mid to high 90's IIRC.
Proven nonsense....
No handgun load gets anywhere near those inflated numbers. They were fabricated by a couple of guys trying to sell some books
 
Surprised this thread is still going . . .


I'll add another question to fuel the fires . . . :D



My own personal opinion: .357 Vs 45 ACP

Each one tends to have its place of which it is better optimized. .45 ACP is as good as it gets in terms of SD situations out of a pistol. A magnum . . . well is a magnum, which means it has the velocity, penetration and range in comparison.


I guess the question that I initially had in my mind was more about, well, to be blunt . . . mostly that exit wounds from the .357 magnum tend to be (for lack of a better word) really "gross" :rolleyes:. WHen hunting exit wounds are an important part of why and how something dies after being shot. A really big, "nasty", bleeding exit wound hast to play a role in what happens after the bullet makes it impact. Not saying it would be a lightning strike, but AS FAR AS I KNOW the 45 ACP doesn't make big and "nasty" exit wounds. Am I Incorrect? Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
The 45 ACP is better in congested environments because it is relatively slow and doesn't overpenetrate.The .357 is good in more wide open areas,which is why it started being used first by state troopers and highway patrolmen.I have carried both on duty and both are outstanding rounds.I personally use a 45 ACP revolver for HD and a 9mm for CCW.Sometimes I carry a 45ACP auto.
 
Keep in mind here I am not arguing one side or another . . . I am merely asking questions and gathering opinions.


.357 magnum, speer Gold dot JHP expands to about .5" upon impact. Thats a .50 cal projectile that still has enough force to exit the human torso. It is no wounder that it makes fairly impressive exit wounds and "throws bits of lung" (and such things). Granted the whole "blowing an arm off" thing is probably a little much, but I was merely stating stories that I have heard as an opening to this thread. I was by no means presenting it as fact.

If I may . . .

My thinking is a heavy (.45 ACP) projectile opening to .7" to 1.0" will make it through tissue and bone quite nicely. And it does not over penetrate which is a plus. Now on the flip side we have the .357 magnum opening up to .5" and even though it is lighter it has the velocity to open up an exit wound on the opposite side. Not so good for HD situations. But it will defiantly make it though flesh and bone, but with the addition of am impressive, bleeding, exit wound. That does not mean its a lightning strike, but it might mean that the BG dies faster do to increased blood loss.


I have to step out for a minute . . . (so this is kind of half a thought)
 
My $.02...

you can make it out of .30-06, .308, .243, Detonics 451 and .44 AMP brass.
Before going any further, let me say, you keep your paws off my brass!!!:D

Yes, all those rounds have the same head size, and so do around a full dozen other cases, and with enough work could be convered into .45acp brass, but with the possible exception of the .451 Detonics, it isn't just a simple job of saw them off and trim them up. If you don't have the forming dies and reamers needed, they ain't gonna work. And if you are thinking of some end of the world situation (or a complete legal ban of ownership, which is the same thing) so that you have to make your .45 auto brass, if you don't have the tools needed beforehand, you ain't gonna be able to get them, so it is kind of a moot point.

As far as the .357 vs the .45, I don't think you are asking the right question. It isn't even a Ford vs Chevy kind of thing either. It's more like a 6 cylinder vs 8 cylinder engine kind of thing. Both get you around equally well, providing you can drive, and each one has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think by just focusing on the cartridge itself that you are looking at enough of the picture. Because, in addition to the round itself, there is the platform to consider. For close to a century, the 1911 had proven itself over and over as being one of the best blends of power, ergonomics, control-ability and firepower ever fielded. Only in the past couple of decades have other pistol designs, more modern, and created with the benefit of being able to look at the 1911 and the .45's historical record, been able to match or exceed the 1911 for popularity and general usage.

And the .357, for a bit over 70 years has also had a sterling record for doing everything it was ever asked to do, as well as could be done. Times change, technology changes, attitudes change. The full size 1911 was for a long time considered a large handgun, difficult to master. And the .357 magnum, in the largest heaviest frame revolvers then made was recommended only for very highly experienced shooters and men of large physical stature!

Today, opinions are somewhat different. But consider the entire package when you talk about defense. And also make sure that you consider the fact that you are talking about shooting people, so both individual anecdotes and results from shooting animals should not be taken at complete face value. People are different. Even when you shoot animals with very similar muscle and bone structure, people are still different.

Which is why I have "issues" with the whole idea of one shot stops, and any kind of "certainty" based on statistics of one shot stops has more hole in it than all the people not stopped by one shot.

Only a portion of the people who are "stopped" by one shot are physically incapacitated by the wound. The rest are either mentally incapacitated, or make a concious decision to cease what ever action it was that got them shot. And to the best of my knowledge, those details are seldom, if ever included when the results of "street shooting" are compiled.

I am not doubting the .357's effectiveness, with proper shot placement, or indeed, the fact that it can also be effective sometimes even with out proper shot placement, nor is the .45 auto any different. There is both much myth and truth about both rounds. When it comes to stopping attacking humans, both rounds are equal, in the sense that if the bullet goes where it needs to, it will do its job. They both have reputations for being effective, and deservedly so, even though they seem to go about doing it via different methods.

As far as "blowing out lung tissue, any bullet that completely penetrates the body (and passes through the lungs in the process) can blow out lung tissue, regardless of the caliber.

I have owned and shot many guns in both calibers over the years, and I have complete confidence in both.

For certain applications I would choose the .357 and for others, the .45, based on the strengths and weaknesses of the overall package, and not solely the cartridge itself.
 
I think the answer is "flip a coin"

I've owned both, and sold both. The Colt Series 70 seemed to recoil too much for me, and the S&W model 66 had extreme muzzle blast. The Smith 60, an older one, chambered for .38Spl+P is what I keep for SD/HD now. Like the tale of the three bears, "This one's too hot... this one's too cold... this one's just right!" I have no doubt that the .38 (now that I've been practicing with it for 20-some years) will fail to get the job done should I ever need it (unlikely).
 
I find both to be extremly effective in their own right, the .357 easily penetrates most anything it hits. The .45 spreads much more and although less penetration causes massive internal damage.
In my own experience I would prefer to carry a .45 for SD due to the lesser chance of over-penetration, but thats just my 0.2c ..... if I were on HP I would most likely carry .357 for the raw need to penetrate a windshield and/or car door or panel.

For the record, I was able to pierce a 1/4" piece of metal with my walther .22 using CCI stingers that only the .357 could. The .22 left a 3/8" hole, the .357 left a .357 non expanding hole. Both were hollow P's. I have yet to test my .45+P's on the same piece but common sence says even the ball ammo won't go through due to size and spread vs. the .357.

For home D' I would prefer the .45 for the penetration issues as I have a small child in the house and would prefer a lessened chance of pass through.
I live in a town of 13k, but am within eyeshot of the worst street in town, which in 3 years has had over 40 shooting incidents, I no longer take chances and carry every minute I can until I can move. If it's after dark on my street you stay inside anymore, the 9 people jumping me was a nice reminder...15 years in federal prison on 2 people doesn't stop meth/pcp/coke users around here, it's free room and board to them.

A little off topic, but worth thinking about.
 
44 AMP said:
Yes, all those rounds have the same head size, and so do around a full dozen other cases, and with enough work could be convered into .45acp brass

While perhaps not as popular now as in past years, I can assure you that re-sizing and trimming brass for other calibers has been done for decades.

In 1979 a shop owner found a huge box of .243 Win which had the odd look and primer ink of some military cases. One guy in the room just pushed himself to the front and declared he would buy it all on the spot.

"I have a .243," he announced, "and I'll shoot smaller deer and varmints with it. When it's gone, I'll make .308's out of it."

Then he grinned, "If I'm still alive by then, I do have a 1911..."

In fact, considering your handle of "44 AMP," you are well aware that reloaders were trimming and reaming rifle brass for their Automags. I believe there was a full set of dies made for that operation, including a trim and file die, and reamers.
 
Tourist, you're preaching to the choir

I make .44 AMP & .357 AMP cases from rifle brass. I have made 7.7 Japanese from .30-06. I have made 8x57 Mauser from .30-06. And .308, and .243. And a few other combinations as well, some factory and some wildcat.

I have even had a die set for making .22-250 from .30-06 (this is a rather involved multi step process). This was before the .22-250 became a factory round, and .250 Savage brass was expensive. However, in those days, .30-06 brass (GI) and our time, was cheap.

Back "in the Day" the easiest way to make .45 auto shotshells was to use rifle brass. But, using rifle brass to make regular .45acp ammo was an act of desperation, and I have never heard of anyone actually bothering to do it, because .45 auto brass is readily available. Using rifle brass for a shot shell made limited sense, as no reaming was needed, and enough "extra" brass could be left after triming to allow for the roll crimp over the card wad. This was in the days before plastic shot capsules, so the shells were loaded the old fashioned way, with a card wad over the shot. These rounds had to be single loaded, and would not cycle autoloaders.

Making rifle brass into .45 auto cases to hold .45 cal bullets involves a lot of reaming of the brass to allow the bullet to fit (the brass it too thick), even more than needed for the .44 bullet of the Auto Mag round. It's just way more work than it is worth. I have done it with Auto Mag round for years, because until recently factory brass was not available.

You could make .45 brass from rifle cases, sure. You can run your Ferarri off wood alcohol too, but as long as you can buy gas, why would you bother?
 
44 AMP, I think your comment of "back in the day" defines us as reloaders.

There was a time, and not too long ago, that people pulled and saved bullets, made their own bullet lube, scronged wheel weights, and saved every stick of brass they found.

In fact, if you took a tub of .45 ACP reloads from next to my SDB, and dumped them on the floor, I doubt if you could find two of the same headstamp. Some brass will be military from during the Vietnam war, and a few will be made from other rifle cases.

Tonight I just sold 600 rounds of .243/6mm bullets to a friend--I haven't owned a .243 in about eight years.

Sometimes I'm amazed at just how much stuff I can buy right off of the shelf.
 
The test I saw for .357 DPX penetrated 14" and expanded to .74. Oh and this was a snub nose. I'd like to see the test out of my 6" barrel.
 
I have been shooting both the .357 mag and the .45 ACP for over 35 years.
They are completely different cartridges.
The .45 for me is much easier and more enjoyable to shoot.
The magnum is blasty, very sharp recoil very loud. I find it very difficult to shoot the .357 magnum with much accuracy with a barrel length under 5"
My tolerance fo shooting the Magnum has decreased greatly as I age.
That said, I live in PA, where hunting with a semi auto is illegal, and I just recently bought a 6" Ruger .357.

FWIW, I carry a .45 ACP pistol pretty often, but if I were forced into a military combat situation I would want the .357 magnum revolver.

I really don't think comparisons like this are valid-experience and preference contribute too much to each shooters choice. It's all subjective, numbers on paper asr pretty much BS.

mark
 
If you look at Mike McNett's gello results, well, you can draw your own conclusions:


Quote:
DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"
vs. buffalobore.coms 357:
180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.)
125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)
158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Hold on a sec. here guy! There're different velocities (and energy) from different lengths of barrels compared, my friend. You're showing .357 Magnum ballistics from DoubleTap where he was using a 4" barrel; while showing Buffalo Bore's results used with a 6" barrel!

Now, look here at the bottom, right under the 4" velocity for DoubleTap (using GoldDot bullet head) .357 Magnum velocity out of a 6" barrel:

357 Magnum 125gr. Speer Gold Dot 500rds. $249.95

This loading makes the .357 Magnum perform like it should!
Velocity is from a 4" bbl and there is virtually no muzzle flash.
For those of you who prefer a wheelgun, this might be the most
effective loading available for defense.
All orders of 1,000rds. or more still get free shipping! Shipping will still show upon checkout so that you may see your savings, but will be manually removed from your order when it is processed.

Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
1750fps / 6"bbl S&W 686

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...id=63&osCsid=8087f33629c85a27cfaa8d830a394997

I'd say that's 50 more fps than BuffaloBore 125 gr. .357 Magnum out of a 6" barrel, wouldn't you? ;)

P.S. If memory is correct, DoubleTaps' 125 gr. .357 Magnum shot out at 1600 fps literally fragged up in gel, and thus the reason for such low penetration as the result.

BTW: Sorry to bring in another caliber, but if you're going to put semi-auto caliber vs. revolver caliber, then you should put the 10mm vs. .357 Magnum; or, for an even more closer comparison: 9x25 Dillon vs. .357 Magnum

The .45 ACP doesn't really match up well against the .357 Magnum, imo. No comparison.
 
Hi Northalius. Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

I posted it for a couple reasons:

First is the superior expansion of the 45ACP. Second is the identical penetration with the 125 grain 357 and the 45 acp 185 grain.

I've talked to Tim Sundles at buffalobore.com and, I've emailed Mike McNett at Doubletap. LIke both guys, and both companies, no axe to grind either way. Guess my putting the 'vs' in was a mistake on my part.

What I draw from those results is the 45 makes a bigger hole, the 357 needs heavier bullets, but won't expand as much, no matter what.

Using 45 Super, I can push that 185 grain Gold Dot between 1300 fps, or 1350. I can also load it up to 40k, 460 Rowland,and get 1400-1500 fps, using a properly timed 1911(don't try this in your stock gun).
None of that really gets me going, since I'd rather have the bigger hole, using the 230 grain bullet, at about 1100-1200 fps. Or, better, a 260 grain bullet at 1000 fps.

I'm just old school, and think Keith and the cowboys had something, using a 45 caliber bullet, at 250-260 grains, at about 950 fps, or faster. Both work, however, and, your choice really should depend on usage.

I think the answer to the original poster is both work, and, they have both been tailored for either the same, or different purposes. Take your pick.
 
Socrates, the .357 can actually do quite well with heavy bullets. Here's a gello test with 180grn Winchester Black Talons

http://www.brassfetcher.com/357mag180grWinBlkTalon.html

0.632" diameter and penetration of 13.9" with an impact velocity of 1092fps doesn't seem too shabby cosidering this was from a revolver with a 2.5" barrel. Obviously Winchester doesn't load their ammunition nearly as hot as Double Tap or Buffalo Bore, unfortunately these companies don't catalog a 180grn JHP .357 load which is to bad because I think it would be quite useful. Actually, the .357 expands about the same as the .45 relative to it's original diameter: 193% for the 125grn Double Tap .357 as opposed to 182% for the 185grn .45 Double Tap, the .45 just has the final diameter advantage because it's bigger to begin with.

I'm just old school, and think Keith and the cowboys had something, using a 45 caliber bullet, at 250-260 grains, at about 950 fps, or faster. Both work, however, and, your choice really should depend on usage.

While that's probably true, .45 Colts, .45 ACP's, and .44 Specials don't fit too well into Smith J-Frames and Ruger SP101's. The .357 gives a much more size efficient package while still retaining good performance if one prefers a revolver.
 
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