Trying to Clear up the 45 ACP is equal to the .357 Magnum--myth or fact????
- Thread starter Aqeous
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Rampant_Colt
New member
If you read my post more closely, you would see that i mention Federal Vital-Shok, which IS DPX ammunition, except that Federal advertises and markets it as hunting ammoAdrian said:
@ aqeous - i apologize if that came off as a personal insult. That was not my intention
When I bought my Detonics Mark VI's, and a VII, the .451 Detonics 185 grain bullet at about 1350 fps, and, the 200 grain Speer flying Ashtrays, pushed at 1200 fps, were being used by police that wanted a more powerful gun, but, was PC..
The gunsmiths advised me that they had pictures of actual shootings with the 200 grain flying ashtrays, and, that on numerous shots, the exit wounds were very large, thanks to hitting bone, and creating high speed fragments, coupled with the bullet maintaining it's velocity through the target, and exiting. They suggested that combination was an ideal round, for actual shootings, and, stopped quite well. I adopted that approach, and, never had to use the rounds on a target, other then paper. Out of the Mark VI they were the most accurate combination I've ever had in a small gun. That was late 70's early 80's, IIRC.
The gunsmiths advised me that they had pictures of actual shootings with the 200 grain flying ashtrays, and, that on numerous shots, the exit wounds were very large, thanks to hitting bone, and creating high speed fragments, coupled with the bullet maintaining it's velocity through the target, and exiting. They suggested that combination was an ideal round, for actual shootings, and, stopped quite well. I adopted that approach, and, never had to use the rounds on a target, other then paper. Out of the Mark VI they were the most accurate combination I've ever had in a small gun. That was late 70's early 80's, IIRC.
Rampant_Colt
New member
What agency?Socrates said:
Are those handloads?
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes.
No.
Maybe.
All three answers are valid depending on the exact kind of ammunition being compared.
Trying to "answer" this question will only frustrate and exhaust you.
Accept the fact that both have things that they do very well and both are extremely capable and you'll be a lot happier in life.
No.
Maybe.
All three answers are valid depending on the exact kind of ammunition being compared.
Trying to "answer" this question will only frustrate and exhaust you.
Accept the fact that both have things that they do very well and both are extremely capable and you'll be a lot happier in life.
Greetings everyone.
I don't think you can quite call them equal.
The magnum was created to provide deep penetration against body armor and vehicles, something the .45 could not do. Then later on earned it's stripes when the 125gr. semi-jacketed hollow points @1450fps were created for it. Those heavily fragmenting rounds are known for having a struck by lightning effect on humans.
When I think .45, fragmenting does not cross my mind. Although, I beleive the lighter Corbons loads are capable of it now that I think about it. But ofcourse your short 200-300fps compared the the magnum which is quite a difference.
I do beleive an arm could be blown off with that round, I recall seeing a similiar story with a .45.
Maybe they are equal in terms of stopping power but differentiate in wounding characteristics.
Take care y'all.
I don't think you can quite call them equal.
The magnum was created to provide deep penetration against body armor and vehicles, something the .45 could not do. Then later on earned it's stripes when the 125gr. semi-jacketed hollow points @1450fps were created for it. Those heavily fragmenting rounds are known for having a struck by lightning effect on humans.
When I think .45, fragmenting does not cross my mind. Although, I beleive the lighter Corbons loads are capable of it now that I think about it. But ofcourse your short 200-300fps compared the the magnum which is quite a difference.
I do beleive an arm could be blown off with that round, I recall seeing a similiar story with a .45.
Maybe they are equal in terms of stopping power but differentiate in wounding characteristics.
Take care y'all.
Don't know, and they wouldn't tell me. Said the guns, with stiff springs they sent me, would shoot for a LONG time, using 200 grain bullets, at 1200 fps, and, they gave me the loads, using stock 45 ACP brass, and, they were right.
Loads are consistent with 45 Super loads, and, the same powders. With a tight chamber, fully supported, and a gun that feeds those bullets, it ran for near 5 years, shot every other day, couple hours a day at the local police range.
Every once in a while, I'd get a failure to go into battery, usually caused by loading a case that didn't size properly, and, that should have been thrown out prior.
Whether or not one is better than the other depends a lot on your point of view and what loads are being used. If, like me, you believe that kinetic energy plays a part in cartridge effectiveness, then the .357 Magnum is superior although the .45 ACP +P comes very close. If you believe that permanent crush cavity alone is the measure of cartrige effectiveness, then the .45 is superior. A lot of it boils down to whether you prefer an auto or revolver. If a revolver is your preference then the .357 Magnum is a much more size efficient cartridge (I've yet to see a J-Frame .45) and has the ability to use .38 Specials for certain applications. If you prefer an auto, a .45 is generally cheaper, smaller, and more reliable than one chambered in .357 Magnum.
From the article you quoted:
Author’s perspective
The 9mm isn’t ok. Tell the fellow who took four 9mm soft point bullets and still managed to inflict a nasty wound that remains with me to this day, and gives my face ‘character’.
The .38 isn’t enough. I once shot a fellow in the lower leg who debated with me whether he had been hit at all until the blood ran from his shoe - then he commenced whimpering and crying.
I once took not the traditional icepick but thank God a nutpicker in the leg. It didn’t go in very far but instantly floored me. The shock to my system completely locked up my knee and thigh muscles. Yet, I did not even require stitches.
I once fired a single .45 caliber hardball round on the move, quickly, and the effect on the target, struck in the ribs, was immediate. All motion ceased - and he fully recovered within a few weeks.
On another occasion I suffered a failure to stop with a much vaunted .45 ACP 200 grain JHP very much in the vogue in the early 1980s, the darling of gunwriters. It penetrated two inches and expanded to a full one inch. Nice but ineffective. The second round produced compliance.
I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet.
R.K. Campbell
[/QUOTE]
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm
SHAME on you!
The author constantly states that shot placement is most important. In a way, his observations undermine his thesis...
Author’s perspective
The 9mm isn’t ok. Tell the fellow who took four 9mm soft point bullets and still managed to inflict a nasty wound that remains with me to this day, and gives my face ‘character’.
The .38 isn’t enough. I once shot a fellow in the lower leg who debated with me whether he had been hit at all until the blood ran from his shoe - then he commenced whimpering and crying.
I once took not the traditional icepick but thank God a nutpicker in the leg. It didn’t go in very far but instantly floored me. The shock to my system completely locked up my knee and thigh muscles. Yet, I did not even require stitches.
I once fired a single .45 caliber hardball round on the move, quickly, and the effect on the target, struck in the ribs, was immediate. All motion ceased - and he fully recovered within a few weeks.
On another occasion I suffered a failure to stop with a much vaunted .45 ACP 200 grain JHP very much in the vogue in the early 1980s, the darling of gunwriters. It penetrated two inches and expanded to a full one inch. Nice but ineffective. The second round produced compliance.
I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet.
R.K. Campbell
[/QUOTE]
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm
SHAME on you!
The author constantly states that shot placement is most important. In a way, his observations undermine his thesis...
Not really trying to start a debate here to be honest. I am just trying to clear one or two things up for myself.
It seems . . . the opinions all feel that are pretty close after all. Usually we don't see this kind of consensus regarding subjects on the firingline, so . . . I'm going to call this one and say that there must be some real truth in it.
Socrates: now that you mention it . . . he did seem to contradict his own thesis! When I read it I hadn't noticed that fact until you said something.
You see that's why I LOVE the firingline. There is no other resource (except maybe the Highroad) that has such a wealth of knowledge and experience. You just post a question, let it bake in the oven, come back and there you go. Some pretty darn good advise . . .
Thread Closed:
It seems . . . the opinions all feel that are pretty close after all. Usually we don't see this kind of consensus regarding subjects on the firingline, so . . . I'm going to call this one and say that there must be some real truth in it.
Socrates: now that you mention it . . . he did seem to contradict his own thesis! When I read it I hadn't noticed that fact until you said something.
You see that's why I LOVE the firingline. There is no other resource (except maybe the Highroad) that has such a wealth of knowledge and experience. You just post a question, let it bake in the oven, come back and there you go. Some pretty darn good advise . . .Thread Closed:
The secret to handgun stopping power is...
That there isn't any. There are only stopping hits.
I carry both mentioned calibers, sometimes at the same time. I don't kid myself that either is going to have any effect at all, other than to knock a good leak through some miscreant's plumbing system. Oh, I'm gonna shoot for the 'uprights' but it might take some shootin' to resolve business.
You see, things tend to go wrong at the worst possible moment- as Mr. Campbell aptly noted.
That there isn't any. There are only stopping hits.
I carry both mentioned calibers, sometimes at the same time. I don't kid myself that either is going to have any effect at all, other than to knock a good leak through some miscreant's plumbing system. Oh, I'm gonna shoot for the 'uprights' but it might take some shootin' to resolve business.
You see, things tend to go wrong at the worst possible moment- as Mr. Campbell aptly noted.
Aqueous:
Another point you might want to consider is the 357, with a 125 grain bullet, is an AWFUL lot like hot 9mm, Depending on barrel length....
Yes, 1350-1550 fps does create stuff flying off targets, and, creates a more noticeable impact. That isn't what works to stop a BG.
What the 357 can do, handloading, is WAY beyond what the 45 can do. Hogdon lists this load:
170-180 grain bullet, at @ nearly 1600 fps, with relatively low pressure is WAY past what the 45 can do, except for the Rowland.
Here's a link to a test supported by our own JohnSKA:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/357mag180grWinBlkTalon.html
Wonder what that same bullet would do, at 1600 fps???
Another point you might want to consider is the 357, with a 125 grain bullet, is an AWFUL lot like hot 9mm, Depending on barrel length....
Yes, 1350-1550 fps does create stuff flying off targets, and, creates a more noticeable impact. That isn't what works to stop a BG.
What the 357 can do, handloading, is WAY beyond what the 45 can do. Hogdon lists this load:
170-180 grain bullet, at @ nearly 1600 fps, with relatively low pressure is WAY past what the 45 can do, except for the Rowland.
Here's a link to a test supported by our own JohnSKA:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/357mag180grWinBlkTalon.html
Wonder what that same bullet would do, at 1600 fps???
The Canuck
New member
.357Magnum.... .45 ACP... I don't care what you folks say, I'm not gonna stand in front of either one willingly. Nor does it matter if the specific round can blow all extremities off with a COM hit. Its where you put the bullet that counts. If you can't hit 'em, you don't stop 'em.
The Tourist
Moderator
This is actually an old debate--quite fun actually--which centers on the fact that numbers derived from a ballistic pendulum, a chronograph or other formulas do not really reflect the use of firearms in real life.
This .357 vs. .45 was actually known in one of the old gunshops I frequented as "The high speed needle vs. the slow speed brick."
On one side was the WWII experience and Jeff Cooper. These guys pointed out the poor performance in war, namely the Moro uprising in the Philipines. To support this theory, they would also mention Elmer Keith's findings during the times of "The .44 Associate." (These were shooters who kept in touch with Mr. Keith and shared .44 SPL loads.)
On the other side of the debate were guys who liked the SW 19's and newer loads in the SW 39 that the police were using. In pointing out the .355 use of the Germans in combat, one fellow actually said, "Well, ten million dead Russians can't all be wrong."
That was in about 1979.
I think at the end of the day this debate is like a "Ford vs. Chevy" argument. It's fun, and it will never be settled.
This .357 vs. .45 was actually known in one of the old gunshops I frequented as "The high speed needle vs. the slow speed brick."
On one side was the WWII experience and Jeff Cooper. These guys pointed out the poor performance in war, namely the Moro uprising in the Philipines. To support this theory, they would also mention Elmer Keith's findings during the times of "The .44 Associate." (These were shooters who kept in touch with Mr. Keith and shared .44 SPL loads.)
On the other side of the debate were guys who liked the SW 19's and newer loads in the SW 39 that the police were using. In pointing out the .355 use of the Germans in combat, one fellow actually said, "Well, ten million dead Russians can't all be wrong."
That was in about 1979.
I think at the end of the day this debate is like a "Ford vs. Chevy" argument. It's fun, and it will never be settled.
I agree.
Both are good calibers and I carry both calibers depending upon how I feel that day. Some days it's a 45 Day and others it's a .357 Day. This morning it's a .357 Day. At work it's a 9mm Day and tonight I may carry a 45 ACP just for grins.
The .357 Magnum with it's 125 Grain loading is still the "King of the Street" that all rounds are compared to. The difference between different rounds has been narrowed over the years due to advancements in bullet technology. Back when I first started carrying a gun the best 9mm HP's would get you in to the "high 80's" as far as one shot stopping percentages. Now that caliber is in the mid to high 90's IIRC.
For what it's worth I don't depend on any caliber to give me a one shot stop, even my .223 or 12 Guage. I like the .357 Magnum because I "know" it works. I like the 45 ACP because I "know" it works too. If I had to carry ball ammo I would want the 45. If I can select the load, or a "proper" load has been selected I have no problem carrying any caliber 38 Special/9mm and above.
This has been a fun thread to read and brought back many memories of gun shop coffee table talk.
Biker
Are they equal? No. They are primarily intended for radically different platforms. They have different design "philosophies" -- one is "heavy&slow", the other is "fast&light". Although the revolver round is also capable of "fast&heavy", that is normally not used for SD/duty, being an over penetration hazard.
Will they get the SD job done just about as well? Yes. At least for civilian uses.
.45 ACP has the advantage of being somewhat easier to control in most platforms making for higher effective rate of fire, and typically has less muzzle flash.
.357 Magnum is arguably more versatile, and has demonstrated better obstacle penetration capability. Granted, the obstacle penetration capability isn't all that desirable in civilian applications, but it CAN be desirable in LE applications and IS desirable in military applications (never mind that .357 Magnum isn't really a viable military round). .357 Magnum really shines vs .45 ACP when you take it out of the "traditional" SD/service gun role, and apply it in other roles like hunting and wildlife defense.
About there not being much in the way of ongoing R&D effort WRT .357 Magnum. Not True. Corbon's DPX loading is one example. Speer's Short Barrel Gold Dot loading is another. That said -- the argument is a non-starter. The round is proven effective in the "traditional" SD offerings. You don't NEED to do a bunch of R&D on the round because the current offerings do the job quite effectively. It isn't busted, so why fix it? Why change it? Why mess with success? After all, it is arguably THE gold standard in SD, the standard that all others aspire to attain.
Will they get the SD job done just about as well? Yes. At least for civilian uses.
.45 ACP has the advantage of being somewhat easier to control in most platforms making for higher effective rate of fire, and typically has less muzzle flash.
.357 Magnum is arguably more versatile, and has demonstrated better obstacle penetration capability. Granted, the obstacle penetration capability isn't all that desirable in civilian applications, but it CAN be desirable in LE applications and IS desirable in military applications (never mind that .357 Magnum isn't really a viable military round). .357 Magnum really shines vs .45 ACP when you take it out of the "traditional" SD/service gun role, and apply it in other roles like hunting and wildlife defense.
About there not being much in the way of ongoing R&D effort WRT .357 Magnum. Not True. Corbon's DPX loading is one example. Speer's Short Barrel Gold Dot loading is another. That said -- the argument is a non-starter. The round is proven effective in the "traditional" SD offerings. You don't NEED to do a bunch of R&D on the round because the current offerings do the job quite effectively. It isn't busted, so why fix it? Why change it? Why mess with success? After all, it is arguably THE gold standard in SD, the standard that all others aspire to attain.
The Tourist
Moderator
gb_in_ga said:
If you are an Ayoob fan, see if you can google his report on a guy who was hit 33 times with the state-of-the-art Illinois 9mm load. It caused such a stink that the department sued Winchester, and they settled.
My point is this. The moment you make something fool proof, someone invents a better fool.
When that report was printed, we had very few guys over 300 pounds who were power lifters, and who dabbled in steroids.
Within a few years we will have lifters over 400 pounds so juiced and coked up that what is state-of-the-art now will bounce off of them like tennis balls.
You will see strides in armor for civilians. I've seen graphite tests in shock absorbers where the strut is filled with powder. It stiffens when low voltage electricity is applied. They hope to have bullet proof vests made in a similar fashion. That is, the vest is simply filled with easy to bend powder, until the soldier is shot--then the vest stiffens for protection.
At one time the minie ball was considered the scourge of the battlefield. Now a simple cardio plate will stop it. Times change, and innovations must continue.
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I'll agree with just about everything
said here, except this:
Since I've not heard any argument on this point. The .357 Magnum (gun, not round, although that too) is clearly the more versatile of the two. From small game (with a .38 target wadcutter load), through personal defense, (the real point of this thread, and the point at which the two calibers are basically equal), up to medium game (with the right loads, at reasonable ranges), the .357 can do it all. Or, looked at another way, if the question were "what one handgun would you want, to do everything that you would do with a handgun", I doubt that anybody would say that a 4" .357 revolver was the wrong answer. As great as it is, I don't think that the 1911 would get the same support.
Against a human target, while they both do the job in a different way, the job will get done. Expand the job, and the .357 wins.
--Shannon
said here, except this:
Since I've not heard any argument on this point. The .357 Magnum (gun, not round, although that too) is clearly the more versatile of the two. From small game (with a .38 target wadcutter load), through personal defense, (the real point of this thread, and the point at which the two calibers are basically equal), up to medium game (with the right loads, at reasonable ranges), the .357 can do it all. Or, looked at another way, if the question were "what one handgun would you want, to do everything that you would do with a handgun", I doubt that anybody would say that a 4" .357 revolver was the wrong answer. As great as it is, I don't think that the 1911 would get the same support.
Against a human target, while they both do the job in a different way, the job will get done. Expand the job, and the .357 wins.
--Shannon
The Tourist
Moderator
You see, as a handloader, I think the .45 ACP is more versatile.
For example, you'll never run out of brass. If you cannot find it on the range or battlefield, you can make it out of .30-06, .308, .243, Detonics 451 and .44 AMP brass.
As for bullets, you do not need fancy-schmancy jackets or alloys. Just strip the wheels weights off the nearest car, or other cheap source of lead, and melt them down ala "The Patriot." Since they move so slowly, Vaseline and candle wax will make good lube, even shot unsized.
The brass of a .357 Mag will split very easily after just a few sizings. I have .45 ACP brass from 1986.
For example, you'll never run out of brass. If you cannot find it on the range or battlefield, you can make it out of .30-06, .308, .243, Detonics 451 and .44 AMP brass.
As for bullets, you do not need fancy-schmancy jackets or alloys. Just strip the wheels weights off the nearest car, or other cheap source of lead, and melt them down ala "The Patriot." Since they move so slowly, Vaseline and candle wax will make good lube, even shot unsized.
The brass of a .357 Mag will split very easily after just a few sizings. I have .45 ACP brass from 1986.