Trying to Clear up the 45 ACP is equal to the .357 Magnum--myth or fact????

[M1911]

M1911- i am refering to the accuracy factor out at farther ranges. this is just my experience but i am far more accurate with the 357 revolvers i own than any 1911 or polymer pistol i have with the exception of a glock 10mm of my friends. i think that is true of most individuals.

Sorry but, 1) that is immaterial. Your chance of being in a gunfight with someone at 50+ yards is slim to none. 2) It isn't an issue with the cartridge, but with the gun. Any bullseye shooter has a 1911 that will do a 2" group at 50 yards from a Ransom rest. 3) I have done a 6" group at 50 yards with my Kimber fullsize and Wilson Combat. You don't need a custom gun to hit a man-size target at 50 yards.

If you shoot revolvers better than other guns, that is certainly a valid reason to carry one. But suggesting that .357 is a more accurate caliber than .45 ACP simply because you shoot it better is completely invalid.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I see the .357 and .45 ACP as 'about equal' as defensive cartridges, so long as neither is handicapped by bullets which penetrate too little.

Good statement to sum up the way I feel as well. My choice in the beginning was more platform than caliber. Now, after all these years, I've come to prefer the caliber as well.

 

[JohnKSa]

I believe that having too little penetration from defensive handgun ammunition, is a far more serious problem than having too much of it.

I agree 100%. I'm not really arguing that penetration should be intentionally limited, rather I'm arguing against the idea that an exit is required for the round to be effective.

My definition of 'too little' is the inability to penetrate straight through an intervening limb and take out the spine.

I believe that aligns very well** with what the FBI document you quoted from defines as sufficient and I don't disagree with that either.

**The document states in the first paragraph of page 11 that: "For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart." I know that you specified that the bullet should reach the spine, not the heart, but I'm thinking that the difference in penetration in a frontal or side shot on a human required to reach & damage the spine shouldn't be hugely different from that required to reach & damage the heart. I'm guessing that tacking on another 4-5" which would raise their figure to 14-17". I feel pretty good about that number given that it's very close to the range of penetration recommended by the article's author (12" to 18").

Given that kind of accuracy, the guy had better be closer, or, my shots better get through the target. In other words, if a COM hit is all you can really expect, due to the combination of ammunition and firearm, and shooter, then you better have two holes, to increase the chance of bleeding out, and, to insure the increased chance of hitting something on the way through.

You fix an accuracy problem by improving accuracy, not by trying to increase power.

1. Increasing power has a tendency to decrease accuracy even more.
2. There is virtually unanimous agreement among experts that hitting where you need to hit is far, FAR, more important than having a few more ft/lbs or a few more inches of penetration.

Given the targets you posted, I believe you'd be FAR better served by carrying your Detonics even if the energy & penetration figures don't measure up to what you're getting from the .357 revolver.

 

[Socrates]

Well, after a day at the range, I've decided the 360PD would be maybe better with 125 grain FMJ .38 special. But, at combat ranges, and COM hits I'm not real convinced.

I shot it much better with the .38 special loads. However, I might go with them just for penetration.

Keep in mind, everyone who's ever shot the Detonics has been super impressed by it's accuracy. With 45 Super, or, our new .475 Huntington short, it's so far off the scale no comparing exists.

That said, my answer is my .475 Linebaugh:

I shot this today, and, 400 grains at 1350 fps will smash both shoulders on an elk, and keep going. It will end to end a deer, miss all vitals, and still drop the deer in it's tracks...

 

[Nanuk]

Ballistically they are not even close, I don't care what it looks like on paper or jello. The 357 Magnum with any load but the 110 smokes the 45 and the 9mm. The 110 grn 357 has less velocity that the 125 and breaks up on impact causing a shallow devistating wound, I want some more penetration. I started in LE before most cops were carrying hollow points.

I was on the Ft Worth, TX PD and we carried mostly 158 Remington SJHP's. They worked VERY well. I saw many shootings, 45 had trouble penetrating car windows and doors, at least one Dallas cop that I know of was killed because his 45 bounced off the back window of the BG's car during a shootout.

Don't get me wrong I carried a 45 as an Army MP so I am a bit nostalgic about the 1911. I grew up on all of the 45 stories as my grandfather was a cop and carried a 45 in the 20's and 30's against the gangsters. A good operator with a 357 wheel gun is a force to be reconed with. I can shoot my 357's fast and accurate, and using speed loaders I can load pretty fast as well. I used to out shoot (faster and more accurate) the Glock shooters during qualifications before we were forced to autos.