George, I think you're right about the chain fires being from loose caps and not from the chamber end of the cylinder. I've read somewhere else that the late great Elmer Keith had the same opinion. Personally, I dont' see how the blast from a fired cylinder could get around the adjacent lead ball on the chamber end of the cylinder, but it's easy to imagine a cap falling off and allowing a spark from a fired chamber in to ignite the powder charge.
triple 7...
- Thread starter Low Key
- Start date
Lowkey,
Hell, it ain't a spark, it's a flash of fire, p'rtnear as much as a flintlock's priming charge. If the cap is missing from the next chamber, whoops, 50-50 chance that'un will fire, too. Well, mebbe 80-20. It IS a small hole in the nipple. Have to be unlucky.
But, then, ain't we all?
If you DID use a "pill" over the ball, why would you use a felt wad under the ball?
It ain't like the felt wad is doing anything other than scrubbing any lube from the pill outa the barrel. Or is it a lubed wad? If it is, RK's argyment comes into play, oily stuff in contact with the powder can't be good.
Cheers,
George
Hell, it ain't a spark, it's a flash of fire, p'rtnear as much as a flintlock's priming charge. If the cap is missing from the next chamber, whoops, 50-50 chance that'un will fire, too. Well, mebbe 80-20. It IS a small hole in the nipple. Have to be unlucky.
But, then, ain't we all?
If you DID use a "pill" over the ball, why would you use a felt wad under the ball?
It ain't like the felt wad is doing anything other than scrubbing any lube from the pill outa the barrel. Or is it a lubed wad? If it is, RK's argyment comes into play, oily stuff in contact with the powder can't be good.
Cheers,
George
The lube I'm using right now is bore butter, but I've got a line on some beeswax to mix with it to thicken it up a bit. I'll try the "pill" over the ball once my beeswax gets here and see how that works.
Right now the way I load is powder charge, dry vegetable fiber wad, little bit of bore butter, and then seat the ball and that seems to work real well for me as far as keeping everything lubed up and running smooth.
My biggest problem has been keeping the cylinder freed up after several shots. It used to bind up pretty quick and I'd have to clean between cylinder loadings to keep it running. Mike told me how to polish the cylinder pin to smooth that out, so I polished it till you can just nearly see your reflection in it and that helped a great deal. Then I tried the new dry wads with just a bit of bore butter between them and the ball and everything seems to work like clockwork. I haven't done an endurance test yet, but I plan on shooting 24 or 30 shots this weekend if it isn't as cold as a well diggers butt outside.
The lube "pill" sound like a cool idea and I'm curious to see how well that would keep my gun running, beeswax on order...just waiting for now.
Thanks George!
Right now the way I load is powder charge, dry vegetable fiber wad, little bit of bore butter, and then seat the ball and that seems to work real well for me as far as keeping everything lubed up and running smooth.
My biggest problem has been keeping the cylinder freed up after several shots. It used to bind up pretty quick and I'd have to clean between cylinder loadings to keep it running. Mike told me how to polish the cylinder pin to smooth that out, so I polished it till you can just nearly see your reflection in it and that helped a great deal. Then I tried the new dry wads with just a bit of bore butter between them and the ball and everything seems to work like clockwork. I haven't done an endurance test yet, but I plan on shooting 24 or 30 shots this weekend if it isn't as cold as a well diggers butt outside.
The lube "pill" sound like a cool idea and I'm curious to see how well that would keep my gun running, beeswax on order...just waiting for now.
Thanks George!
Remington kid
New member
A while back I started useing a little lube over the dry wad, ball and the pill. This really works great but I have added a twist that makes a really big difference.The lube over the wad is just a little thicker than wonder lube so that it works as a lube and not as a heavy wax. The pill over the ball is heavier or thicker so that it sticks in hot weather and also after fireing shots.
The wad seems to really help in three ways, it helps seal from chain fires, acts as a brush following the lube and it put's the ball closer to the mouth of the chamber without measureing out corn meal or corn flakes
The wads I use are home made from real wool and they start out about 1/8" thick . After loading my 40g of Goex fff , a wad with a smear of lube on top, 454 ball it places the ball about 1/8" from the top of the chamber after all is compressed by the ram.
When I got my Remingtons and did the tune up thing I also chamfered the mouth of the cylinders to make loading easier and there is very little saving of the ball but it's compressed the same. The pill over the ball is just extra insurance and it doesn't seem to hurt anything as far as accuracy, so why not use it?
The next pills I make will be a little softer with more lube and about 1/16" as George suggested but Im going to try them over the over the wool wad and see what happens. Just slide the wad over the chamber and start it with my thumb as always and then do the same with a lube pill, then place the ball on top and run it home. It should work great, but with my luck you never know
The wad seems to really help in three ways, it helps seal from chain fires, acts as a brush following the lube and it put's the ball closer to the mouth of the chamber without measureing out corn meal or corn flakes
The wads I use are home made from real wool and they start out about 1/8" thick . After loading my 40g of Goex fff , a wad with a smear of lube on top, 454 ball it places the ball about 1/8" from the top of the chamber after all is compressed by the ram.
When I got my Remingtons and did the tune up thing I also chamfered the mouth of the cylinders to make loading easier and there is very little saving of the ball but it's compressed the same. The pill over the ball is just extra insurance and it doesn't seem to hurt anything as far as accuracy, so why not use it?
The next pills I make will be a little softer with more lube and about 1/16" as George suggested but Im going to try them over the over the wool wad and see what happens. Just slide the wad over the chamber and start it with my thumb as always and then do the same with a lube pill, then place the ball on top and run it home. It should work great, but with my luck you never know
Melted some bee's wax and oil about 50/50 last night. Poured it onto foil, real thin, mebbe 1/16. Went to bed. When I come down this morning, oil was seperating from the wax. That ain't good. That's gonna contaminate the powder with oil, whether it interferes with the powder's blast or not, I don't know, but don't think oil saturated powder is gonna be full power.
Have to get some lamb tallow. Fortunately, as a Serb, who loves lamb, I can just go barbeque a chunk, no salt (crap, no garlic, either) and try miixing that in. Can't use my country bacon grease, as that is full of salt and the like, too.
For bee's wax, go to the plumber's outlet at Home Depot or wherever and look at the toilet bowl seals. Some are bee's wax, and they are like a buck or two.
Cheers,
George
Have to get some lamb tallow. Fortunately, as a Serb, who loves lamb, I can just go barbeque a chunk, no salt (crap, no garlic, either) and try miixing that in. Can't use my country bacon grease, as that is full of salt and the like, too.
For bee's wax, go to the plumber's outlet at Home Depot or wherever and look at the toilet bowl seals. Some are bee's wax, and they are like a buck or two.
Cheers,
George
George, I've never had the olive oil separate from the beeswax after they are melted together. If you are using those toilet bowl seals, I bet you got one that had something else in it besides beeswax. I used to use those things as a lube over the balls in a BP revolver and the ones I got were called wax seals but were actually some kind if really heavy grease. There may be some that have a lot of real beeswax in them but pure beeswax would be too hard at normal room temperature to work the way a toilet seal is supposed to work so they would probably have some additive in them. If you dry the oil off of your cooled lube, does it keep on separating out or has it finished doing that? The first separation may be that additive and you may be left with usable lube.
I have some sheets of pure beeswax foundation left over from my bee-keeping days. I'd be happy to mail you 2 or 3 for you to experiment with some wax you know isn't mixed with something else.
Steve
I have some sheets of pure beeswax foundation left over from my bee-keeping days. I'd be happy to mail you 2 or 3 for you to experiment with some wax you know isn't mixed with something else.
Steve
Steve,
I'd appreciate that. I'm not sure, now, that I know bee's wax when I see it. I was pretty sure it was bee's wax, they used a lot of it where I worked many years ago, and I had a pound or so block, but mixed with the oil, it looks more like parrafin, waxy white. The golden oil doesn't even give it a tellow tint.
It's as hard as the slabs of parrafin, also.
I didn't use a bowl ring, didn't have one. Did buy one, tonight, though, and sitting in the house an hour and a half, warming up, you can press hard enough to leave a thumbprint in the surface. Almost brassy in color. Does not smell like anything.
I remelted what I had made, and this time it is not weeping, but it's also still in the melting container.
If you're sure of the starter sheets, I find your e-mail is listed. I'll send you a mail with my mailing address.
Thanks much.
Cheers,
George
I'd appreciate that. I'm not sure, now, that I know bee's wax when I see it. I was pretty sure it was bee's wax, they used a lot of it where I worked many years ago, and I had a pound or so block, but mixed with the oil, it looks more like parrafin, waxy white. The golden oil doesn't even give it a tellow tint.
It's as hard as the slabs of parrafin, also.
I didn't use a bowl ring, didn't have one. Did buy one, tonight, though, and sitting in the house an hour and a half, warming up, you can press hard enough to leave a thumbprint in the surface. Almost brassy in color. Does not smell like anything.
I remelted what I had made, and this time it is not weeping, but it's also still in the melting container.
If you're sure of the starter sheets, I find your e-mail is listed. I'll send you a mail with my mailing address.
Thanks much.
Cheers,
George
Smokin_Gun
New member
Hey george what's up? Just dropped by to see what's up in here. Jus'ta let ya know most all those dunny bowl seals are petroleum base...you don't want to use them in BP Guns. If they do work George let me know, there may not be enough petro to hurt anything. Maybe I'll try a small batch too.I use toilet seal rings to watersproof muzzleoader barrels or waterproopf caps only.
Hi to the rest of you Ranglers, wanted to mention the about the lube pills briefly. The ones I make and a few of us at another forum, are made with T/C Natural Lube 1000 Bore Butter, Parafin, and Beeswax. Or either and/or olive oil. I use these in every Rev I have and they do not contaminate the Powder. I use strictly "Holy Black" and nothin else C&B or Cartridge. They ork excellant. Myself I have never had a use for Wonder Wad or Wool of any type. If you use these pills you need nothing else. To melt and mix this concoction, you nee to boil water in one pan, then set a second pan in the boiling water and place the mixture in the second pan. Kinda like poachin an egg. This should help the mixing process, and may prevent the seperation problems. Anyway it works for me...
Remington Kid, you must be using a Dragoon to load 40gr of FFFg BP a Wonder Wad and a ball with a lube pill on it...Is that what you are talking about. Cause in my Rems I can just barely get a ball in on top of 35-37gr of BP. I was just wondering what you were shooting. In my Colt Dragoon I shoot 40gr of FFFg C&B and 30gr FFFg in a Cartridge w/ 255gr FP softlead Bullet...Snaps out pretty good.
Anyway Just wanted ta put my 2 cents in and say Hi to all.
Hi to the rest of you Ranglers, wanted to mention the about the lube pills briefly. The ones I make and a few of us at another forum, are made with T/C Natural Lube 1000 Bore Butter, Parafin, and Beeswax. Or either and/or olive oil. I use these in every Rev I have and they do not contaminate the Powder. I use strictly "Holy Black" and nothin else C&B or Cartridge. They ork excellant. Myself I have never had a use for Wonder Wad or Wool of any type. If you use these pills you need nothing else. To melt and mix this concoction, you nee to boil water in one pan, then set a second pan in the boiling water and place the mixture in the second pan. Kinda like poachin an egg. This should help the mixing process, and may prevent the seperation problems. Anyway it works for me...
Remington Kid, you must be using a Dragoon to load 40gr of FFFg BP a Wonder Wad and a ball with a lube pill on it...Is that what you are talking about. Cause in my Rems I can just barely get a ball in on top of 35-37gr of BP. I was just wondering what you were shooting. In my Colt Dragoon I shoot 40gr of FFFg C&B and 30gr FFFg in a Cartridge w/ 255gr FP softlead Bullet...Snaps out pretty good.
Anyway Just wanted ta put my 2 cents in and say Hi to all.
Remington kid
New member
Smoken Gun, It amazes me at how many people claim they can't load 40g in a Remington .44 and I have been doing it for a long time and so have others on here and other sites. That's what I carry in the woods and it's what I take deer with.
40g of fff Goex, A 1/8" home made felt wad over the powder, grease over the wad and a .454 ball will still leave you enough room for a pill or lube on top of the ball if you like to do that. I like a little lube on top not because Im worried about chain fires but because the wad and lube togeather help to keep the barrel clean and the works running smooth.
Take a look at the thread on this site called "How to Load .40g in your Remington .44"
Lube of any kind including just wax will contaminate the powder in hot weather or if left to sit to long. Load three chambers with a dry wd and three with a pill and let it sit a spell. You will feel, see and hear the difference.Maybe I should say That I and others who have tried this do feel and hear the difference.
40g of fff Goex, A 1/8" home made felt wad over the powder, grease over the wad and a .454 ball will still leave you enough room for a pill or lube on top of the ball if you like to do that. I like a little lube on top not because Im worried about chain fires but because the wad and lube togeather help to keep the barrel clean and the works running smooth.
Take a look at the thread on this site called "How to Load .40g in your Remington .44"
Lube of any kind including just wax will contaminate the powder in hot weather or if left to sit to long. Load three chambers with a dry wd and three with a pill and let it sit a spell. You will feel, see and hear the difference.Maybe I should say That I and others who have tried this do feel and hear the difference.
Smokin_Gun
New member
BP Conversion Sheet
Try this for data on FFg 777 loads...http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Try this for data on FFg 777 loads...http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Smokin_Gun
New member
It ain't that hard...
But do you realize that 40.5gr of FFg 777 equates to 65 gr of FFg Goex from the Hogdon charts? All you do is find a BP load go to the 777 adjusted load and that's what you'd use.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
But do you realize that 40.5gr of FFg 777 equates to 65 gr of FFg Goex from the Hogdon charts? All you do is find a BP load go to the 777 adjusted load and that's what you'd use.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Smoke,
Damn, Kevin sounds like you do on the other board.
Nuh, just use your measurer, plenty good enough, they always throw the same charge.
Now you're thinkin that he's usin a MEASURER that will fit 40 gr under a ball and wad in a 58 and he uses 777, and you are worried that he is shooting 50% overloads.
Thanks, Pal, I think you are seeing what I am trying to say.
You got to measure the load, then weigh the load then adjust the MEASURE to that load. And, with the hotter powders, you gotta be even more careful.
You mention deer antler measures, elsewhere. I got antlers in the garage, be nice to cut a tine off, drill a hole in it, WEIGH the volume, drill a little deeper till I got a true measure, but I will WEIGH the powder in the hole, to check volume. Then I will shoot by volume that the horn tip throws.
Cheers,
George
Damn, Kevin sounds like you do on the other board.
Nuh, just use your measurer, plenty good enough, they always throw the same charge.
Now you're thinkin that he's usin a MEASURER that will fit 40 gr under a ball and wad in a 58 and he uses 777, and you are worried that he is shooting 50% overloads.
Thanks, Pal, I think you are seeing what I am trying to say.
You got to measure the load, then weigh the load then adjust the MEASURE to that load. And, with the hotter powders, you gotta be even more careful.
You mention deer antler measures, elsewhere. I got antlers in the garage, be nice to cut a tine off, drill a hole in it, WEIGH the volume, drill a little deeper till I got a true measure, but I will WEIGH the powder in the hole, to check volume. Then I will shoot by volume that the horn tip throws.
Cheers,
George
Smokin_Gun
New member
No George I'm not worried..it's MPP's gun and he's a big boy and can do as he pleases, the numbers are there if anyone wants to use them...it's you that I worry about cause you still don't get it...wellI give up on you in this forum too...all these other guys understand volumetric measuring devices but you still don't...that's what I can't understand george, how you can't or won't seem to understand something so simple...you win geoge i give up on you...
FYI you outta read the last posted pages before you reply george....
FYI you outta read the last posted pages before you reply george....
Smoke,
Damn, you can take a fist and drop a ball on it and cover it with powder and say, "That's the way you measure this stuff."
Or you can do like everybody else and weigh the charge from your measure and say "Yup, 35 grs is what you shoot, and if you'll look at my MEASURER, you'll see that I scratched a line here, below the 25 mark that WEIGHS 35 grs."
****, I say everybody else, and apparently NOBODY else has ever weighed their charge, just take it on faith that CVA and Treso and anybody else that has a plastic injection molding company really gives a damn what you do.
Hey, I give up, you won't even check your charge and come back and say . yup, it's right on is like sayin' God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
With you, I can't argue. You will not listen to any kind of reason. You know what's what, and that is all there is to say.
I give up, for the last time,
Cheers,
George
Damn, you can take a fist and drop a ball on it and cover it with powder and say, "That's the way you measure this stuff."
Or you can do like everybody else and weigh the charge from your measure and say "Yup, 35 grs is what you shoot, and if you'll look at my MEASURER, you'll see that I scratched a line here, below the 25 mark that WEIGHS 35 grs."
****, I say everybody else, and apparently NOBODY else has ever weighed their charge, just take it on faith that CVA and Treso and anybody else that has a plastic injection molding company really gives a damn what you do.
Hey, I give up, you won't even check your charge and come back and say . yup, it's right on is like sayin' God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
With you, I can't argue. You will not listen to any kind of reason. You know what's what, and that is all there is to say.
I give up, for the last time,
Cheers,
George
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cap-and-ball.php
Kevin,
I think Smoke is trying to tell you that the "kinda hot" is because you are shooting "WAY" hot. Link above is the EASY Hodgon's site that says the 58 should shoot 25 grs 777. That is close to 40 grs BP. 40 grs VOLUME 777 is like 60 grs BP. So, yeah, it's kinda hot, but hey, you like it, shoot it at your own risk, nobody on here said to use that hot a load.
I will advise against it, but do what you want. It's your hands, your gun, just try to shoot without any innocent bystanders nearby.
Cheers,
George
Kevin,
I think Smoke is trying to tell you that the "kinda hot" is because you are shooting "WAY" hot. Link above is the EASY Hodgon's site that says the 58 should shoot 25 grs 777. That is close to 40 grs BP. 40 grs VOLUME 777 is like 60 grs BP. So, yeah, it's kinda hot, but hey, you like it, shoot it at your own risk, nobody on here said to use that hot a load.
I will advise against it, but do what you want. It's your hands, your gun, just try to shoot without any innocent bystanders nearby.
Cheers,
George
you know guys,we never had these kinda back and fourth discussions till some of you came aboard! i use hodgon's site on 777 cause i dont use goex!and if im loading my gun to hot i have done so for 11 yrs now,damn thing aint blown up yet!i didnt just start yesterday either!you know,most of us on here came to learn and enjoy each others words and thats it!i have to put up with arguing at work so i dont expect to have to see it here at a fun place!if yall want to argue please go somewhere else cause the rest of use are trying to have fun!! thank you.