Trapped into a mouse gun

...one of the top gun men at the magazine...said...his number one carry weapon was the Seacamp 32. Now I know we can't all be as proficient as he is, but it told me that whatever you feel most comfortable with and can hit the target with, should be the weapon you carry.
Yeah, I quit taking advice from 'gun writers' many years ago.

Ever hear the one about the IDPA Grandmaster who carried a 5-shot J-frame and no reload?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=440344
Most self defense classes teach you the range you can legally use a weapon to defend yourself
CYA.

Bad breath distance or out past 50yds, if someone is shooting at me, I plan to shoot back if possible.
 
Practice and shot placement. I carry a Sig P238 with Crimson Trace laser all the time, loaded with Hornaday Critical Defense. Weighs probably 22-23 oz. I don't go looking for trouble and don't feel undergunned. I'm comfortable carrying a smaller caliber because I am reasonably confident I can put bullets where they will do serious damage, especially with the laser (and yes, I practice without the laser, too). To each his own.
 
I realize 'comfort' is the most important thing in many people's lives. But even with my 'extremely paranoid' carry gear, I don't find the need to constantly fiddle with, take on/off, load/unload, or lock it up just because I may be uncomfortable

I often wear my gear 12+ hours a day and find I still have it on at bed time. I know that is difficult for the mousegunners to fathom.

FYI: I left the house approximately 6:30 a.m.

Two trips to the local Jr. High School (one to see my son in an assembly), two different banks, city hall and lunch in a nice sit-down restaurant. Plus about 3 hours of driving. No, I'm not now or have I ever been LE.

Carrying a Glock 19 with a JPoint mounted (AIWB), spare magazine (G17+2), two knives, phone and a light. No, I didn't need any of it.

Today.

Yes, I could have did fine, and been more 'comfortable' with a J-frame or Keltec .32 and no reload. Or no gun at all.

Today.

I'm still wearing it as I type this and am about to head off to a baseball meeting. Still wearing my carry gear. And I (probably) still won't need it while I'm out this trip either.

Today.

What about tomorrow?

Or the day after that?

Same thing that happens every other day. Nothing. Statistically, odds are excellent you and I will lead long and happy lives that do not end in gunfire.

If you feel the need to carry a big ol' pistol, a big ol' mag, and two knives, good on you. Why in God's name would you care what I am carrying? It's just been explained to you WHY mousegun folks carry them, and you are still questioning it. I don't really get it. It's tantamount to some of us asking you how you can walk around without a long gun. 12g is typically a more reliable man-stopper than a 9mm, you know. I think that you understand the decision, and I think that you disagree with it. Whoopee, welcome to the horse race.

You say you work past your discomfort of carrying. Excellent. So do I. I simply make sure I'm not having some big honkin' hogleg pokin' me in the kidneys all day, rather than just ignoring it. My carry at work is verboten (by policy, not law), so I'd like to not ever be 'made'. I work in a very physically active environment, so much so that traditional carry methods are out.

Insofar as the 'fiddling', I have a son. I love him very much. We talk at length about gun safety. Regardless, my guns are also locked up. I don't know what you do with your chitlins, but I expect you are doing what you think is best for them. In my house, guns get locked up at the end of the day. The end of the day tends to come earlier if I have a 1911 in a shoulder holster rather than a pocket piece.

I offer the same creed I offered before. I hope YOU feel good about what YOU carry. If you need to bring it to bear, I hope your toolset and skillset get the job done for you. I've got my end all taken care of. ;)
 
You say you work past your discomfort of carrying
I can see where what I posted might have been misconstrued, but I am not in the least uncomfortable carrying a 'big honkin' hogleg' every day (if that's what you consider a G19 :rolleyes:).
Why in God's name would you care what I am carrying? It's just been explained to you WHY mousegun folks carry them, and you are still questioning it. I don't really get it.
Trying to get people to understand that they don't have to settle for being marginally armed. There are multiple ways to carry more than a pocket pistol in day-to-day activities without discomfort and printing.

If you guys want to go out in the world deceiving yourselves that you are adequately armed, so be it.
I've got my end all taken care of
I really hope you do.

I'm out.
 
I really think you're simply not understanding the context other people may be carrying in.

I can see where what I posted might have been misconstrued, but I am not in the least uncomfortable carrying a 'big honkin' hogleg' every day (if that's what you consider a G19 ).

I understand that to you, that your Glock is a carry-able piece and you don't get made. Some people have highly physical demands placed on them in the course of the day, where printing is not the only way to get made - often concealing garments lift, showing your firearm. Sometimes people get 'touched' or 'handled', so a hard lump would be questioned. Sometimes dressing to hide a gun sticks out - because you're wearing the wrong clothes for the occasion/task/climate. Assuming that the waist and shoulder become poor methods of carrying, you are left with precious little real estate to carry a weapon on - ankle, Thunderwear, pocket, and perhaps belly band. A G19 is not really suitable for any of those places on most average human bodies.

Trying to get people to understand that they don't have to settle for being marginally armed. There are multiple ways to carry more than a pocket pistol in day-to-day activities without discomfort and printing.

If you guys want to go out in the world deceiving yourselves that you are adequately armed, so be it.

And some folks (well, one folk, anyway, at least) is trying to get YOU to understand that A) a mousegun is not necessarily marginally armed by definition, and B) discomfort and printing are not the only reasons people carry mouseguns. Imagine being a 105 pound woman. Are you going to carry a 1911 all day? Most likely, you would not. There are some that do - but the cast majority would find that to be too demanding in a variety of ways (weight, size, need to be covered, physcial discomfort). Most folks wouldn't consider the weight, or the discomfort, because the sheer SIZE makes it a nearly impossible task. It's not discomfort, it's a literal inability!

I'm not deceiving myself. I would prefer to carry a .45 as opposed to my lil bitty .22. However, that's not a reliastic possibility given my set of circumstances. I have a .357 I love to carry - I just rarely have the opportunity. Pocket pistols, too, I think, may be a bit more potent than you're giving them credit for. They do what they were intended to do when asked. You may have noted the recent popularity of the LCP/P3AT. There is a reason for that popularity.

I could sit here all day and rag you about your 9mm. I don't care for that cartridge, most of the time. But really, in the end, it doesn't matter. You like it for you, and that's what's most important. Most people put a great deal of thought into their EDC setup, and while fresh opinions can be stimulating, typically folks who have the forethought to carry have the forethought to think about what it is that they might want to carry.

One man's thoughts.
-L.
 
and incidentally...

Bad breath distance or out past 50yds, if someone is shooting at me, I plan to shoot back if possible.


...sounds questionable to me. If you've got a long-gun, perhaps... but if someone is plinking at you from 50 with a handgun, and your choice is to respond in kind, I must question why you would not be seeking cover. I practice at distance with my carry piece, but if you think taking shots past FIFTY YARDS is acceptable, you and I have some very different ideas on the best way to keep yourself safe. I'm going to hope that was off-the-cuff bravado, and not a true outline of your game plan for that scenario.
 
Sure am glad we got folks around to let me know when I am deceiving myself. I have been an avid hunter and shooter for 42 years now. I have owned enough guns to open a fair sized gun store. I dare to say that I have shot more living, breathing animals with more different calibers than most of the people on this forum. I think that I have enough information to make my own decisions without deceiving myself. Some folks seem to think because something is their opinion that it makes it fact.
Some folks think a Glock 19 is great, some think it is a pop gun and ineffective. I give adults the credit for having enough sense to gather their own information and make their own decisions.
Adequately armed for what, if a T-34 tank rolls up in front of your house I doubt any of us are adequately armed. Adequately armed is different for different folks. I know one gentleman that I would soil myself if I had to face him with me a 12 gauge and him only a Ruger 22. He has been there and done that and is a proven quantity under fire in real gunfights. He is deathly accurate from almost any angle or firing position and he is not going to choke. He occasionally carries a mouse gun. Believe me, he is adequately armed short of the break out of full open warfare.
Our opinions are only our opinions. Every persons capabilities and needs are different. Some wouldn't be able to defend themselves with a 12 gauge and some are a deadly proposition with a 22. Most people have enough sense to figure out what suits their needs. If not, they usually have enough sense to consult someone with enough experience to advise them.
So lets try to remember that our opinions are only our opinions. And this is all only my opinion.
 
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My constant carry handgun is a P3AT. No matter how I am dressed, it and my mini-utility tool are with me.

If I am dressed for it, my CZ-82 and Leatherman are added to my wardrobe.
 
I understand that to you, that your Glock is a carry-able piece and you don't get made. Some people have highly physical demands placed on them in the course of the day, where printing is not the only way to get made - often concealing garments lift, showing your firearm. Sometimes people get 'touched' or 'handled', so a hard lump would be questioned. Sometimes dressing to hide a gun sticks out - because you're wearing the wrong clothes for the occasion/task/climate. Assuming that the waist and shoulder become poor methods of carrying, you are left with precious little real estate to carry a weapon on - ankle, Thunderwear, pocket, and perhaps belly band. A G19 is not really suitable for any of those places on most average human bodies.
Im very active and work (as well as play) physically outdoors for the most part, but also indoors at times. I climb all over stuff, and in and out of holes, run, jump, etc. I dress as I always have, and whats acceptable for what I do, and Ive had no troubles carrying full size guns, as well as a double reload, day in, day out, every day now for over 30 years. Its really not as hard as some seem to think or want to tell you.


...sounds questionable to me. If you've got a long-gun, perhaps... but if someone is plinking at you from 50 with a handgun, and your choice is to respond in kind, I must question why you would not be seeking cover. I practice at distance with my carry piece, but if you think taking shots past FIFTY YARDS is acceptable, you and I have some very different ideas on the best way to keep yourself safe. I'm going to hope that was off-the-cuff bravado, and not a true outline of your game plan for that scenario.
When was the last time you were in Walmart or one of the bigger grocery stores? A 50 yard shot is not a "long" shot at all. You can pick any scenario you'd like, but the whole point is, can you deal with any of them, not just the ones you want to use to make your point, with the gun you have with you? Sometimes you dont have a choice, you may have to take the shot, regardless what anyone else whos trying to second guess you might be thinking or try to justify.

Your wife is standing 20 feet from someone across the front of the store, who just shot the congress woman standing next to her, and is about to shoot her. Are you starting to get the drift?

If you feel it necessary to have a gun along in the first place, dont you think it warrants having a "reasonable" gun along? Or is it all about fashion and coolness?
 
I chose a major caliber in a small size, a Kahr PM9 ... I pratice with it a lot, carry a spare mag and can carry and easily conceal it in a pocket or in a belt holster ... I occasionally carry a small 1911, a J-frame or even an NAA tiny .22mag PUG ... but with the 9mm and a reload, I never feel undergunned, despite the size and weight of the gun ...
 
You can pick any scenario you'd like, but the whole point is, can you deal with any of them, not just the ones you want to use to make your point, with the gun you have with you?
Based on previous answers (slightly changed), it would go like:

Sorry, my beloved wife/son/daughter but
If my .32 won't help our situation, we're just S.O.L.
If a whole mag of .22 plus reload don't help, we were in a bad way to start with.
If we get stuck, we're just screwed.
Does that change anyone's outlook? Or do you consider your family or your own life only worth a .22 or .32?
 
A 50 yard shot is not a "long" shot at all.

You and I have just parted ways, friend. You're telling me under duress, in a crowded Wal-Mart, you feel comfortable taking FIFTY YARD shots?

Please.
 
Does that change anyone's outlook? Or do you consider your family or your own life only worth a .22 or .32?

Absolutely. I can get the job done with a .22. Guns are not talismans, they are tools. The fact I've brought a .22 to the party, packing for both my wife and child, says a great deal about the fact that I care for them.
 
I was going to ignore that comment but I can't help myself. A 50 yard shot with a semi-automatic pistol is NOT a long shot at all? Maybe if you are only trying to get someone's attention off of your wife, but pal, you better be running toward him as fast as you can to take a realistic shot. If you can hit a 50 yards, you may as well only carry a mouse gun, because you're Superman and don't need anything bigger if you can place shots like that. Stop being ridiculous, please.
 
You and I have just parted ways, friend. You're telling me under duress, in a crowded Wal-Mart, you feel comfortable taking FIFTY YARD shots?

Please.
If my wife, or yours was about to be shot, yea, Id take it. You wouldnt?

Then again, I do practice at 50 yards on a fairly regular basis, and can, and do make good hits, so it wouldnt be like it was the first time and I was winging it or anything.

Now if all I had were the Seecamp..... well.... "spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch. Hi! Hi! Mr Man! Mr Man with the gun, Over here! Over here! :)
 
I was going to ignore that comment but I can't help myself. A 50 yard shot with a semi-automatic pistol is NOT a long shot at all? Maybe if you are only trying to get someone's attention off of your wife, but pal, you better be running toward him as fast as you can to take a realistic shot. If you can hit a 50 yards, you may as well only carry a mouse gun, because you're Superman and don't need anything bigger if you can place shots like that. Stop being ridiculous, please.
You my friend need to get out more if yo believe this to be the truth. If you actually give it a try, and practice a little you'd know its not really all that difficult. We shoot at 100 yards too, but my eyes arent what they used to be, and I dont do quite as well as I once did, but I do good enough to know you wouldnt want to place a bet. ;)
 
I "get out" a lot and I will stand by my statement that you cannot accurately place a shot with a handgun at 150 feet in a high-stress, quick reaction situation. I am new to this forum but not to handguns. I own a Baby Browning, a Colt .38 Special, a Sig P225, a Kahr PM9, two Sig P238s, and a Remington Wingmaster 12 gauge. I have become a believe in laser-sighting. The 238s and the Kahr have Crimson Trace lasers, the Sig 225 will shortly. I still wouldn't take a shot with them at 150 feet if I was really trying to hit something other than the broad side of a barn. I'm 57 years old, and I can cover 150 feet pretty fast even now. I would close to engage realistically.
I'll go a step further, since you brought up Tucson. If you are a person who would be shooting into a crowd at 150 feet with your hand cannon, thinking you would be right on target, I take back what I said. You shouldn't be carrying a mouse gun. You shouldn't be carrying at all.
 
Define "a lot", and how do you practice, and what do you shoot at?

Just because you might not be able to hit a man sized target at 50 yards doesnt mean others cant. Its really not hard, but it may seem so if you dont shoot at those distances. To put it in perspective, the target is basically 18"x18" with a 6-8" index point on top. You dont think you could keep them more or less on a sheet of notebook paper centered in that 18"x18" at that distance?

I normally shoot 3-500 rounds a week on average. Mostly handgun, but a fair amount of rifle in there too each month. I dont shoot bullseye targets much, and most are "photo" people targets without a fixed aiming point. I dont have to worrry about range officers, or other silly rules where I cant draw and shoot, or move while I shoot, which is basically how I practice. My targets might not have tiny little groups on them, but they do usually have good "hits" where they need to be. Makes a big difference in the long run, and gives a much better idea as to where you are in the real world, as opposed to those little ragged holes in a black circle.

I could probaly do that too though, if you wanna bet. :D
 
I took an advanced handgun course a couple of years ago. We did 800+ round in day with several long range drills.

We were shooting under time and stress at reduced scale man targets at 50 and 100 yds. Admittedly not actual 'combat'-induced stress, but since some of you claim it can't be done anyway, humor me.

Oh, and I was using my then carry gun - a Glock 26 subcompact:eek: I've stepped up some since then.

The majority of us (everyday CCW guys* - only one LE in the class) with service-sized handguns were hitting each and every time. (Note: those who brought mouseguns and J-frames didn't do nearly as well).

I've kept up the practice, so yeah, I'm confident at contact out to 50+ yds with my chosen carry gun. Besides, in the mall, church, Wal*Mart, etc you may have a shelf, bench, planter, etc for a rest so you won't necessarily have to use your perfect Weaver stance.

Heck, Suarez International has students in their Active Shooter/Terrorist Interdiction classes hitting at 200 yds with handguns.


*- OK, maybe not 'everyday' CCW guys since we didn't shoot the class with P32's and LCP's.
 
AK,
I shoot at both silhouette targets and photorealistic targets of bad guys with guns. I have been shooting about 50 rounds ever other week. I'm left-handed. I practice with and without laser, two-handed, and one hand, both left and right. I agree with you that in a real-world situation, there is no need for precision groups. That said, with my Sig 238, I can put bullets through almost the same hole consistently at 12 feet, and 4" group at 30 feet. I carry cocked and locked, so I concentrate on drawing, getting the safety off, and getting a shot on center mass in 2-3 seconds. I can do that consistently out to 30 feet, and I personally do not much care about ranges much beyond that, though I'm pretty sure I could a least put a bullet on a man-size target at 50 feet.
I do not know many people who shoot 300-500 rounds per week, even law enforcement. I am not LE.
I simply cannot fathom the need to take a shot with a handgun at 150 feet, especially into a crowd, drawing, aiming, and firing in 2-3 seconds. I use those criteria because a lot of self-defense instructors list that criteria. I'm sure you have heard it: a typical SD encounter is inside 3 yards, last 3 seconds, involves maybe 3 shots. You insist you can hit a man at 50 yards - great. I suspect very few can. I don't try. I would love to see a YouTube video of you performing this feat under stress (as you say, a gunman bringing a gun to bear on your wife) in 2-3 seconds.
 
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