Those Who Have a Concealed Weapons Permit, Please Read.....

Any non LEO who display a gun in a threatening manner can be charged with brandishing in most jurisdiction.
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It depends on what we call the "A" word--Articulation.

You must be able to articulate that: the threat was of sufficient severity to warrant the use of deadly force; that the threat was imminent; that the assailant had demonstrated the willingness to use deadly force against you, and (possibly most importantly) that the assailant was in the position to carry out the threat. In short, a "reasonable person" would believe, under the same circumstances that they were in danger of death or serious bodily harm.
 
And if you can articulate the threat as reaching the level to let you draw, you have reached the level of use.
As a non-LEO it is not my job to offer one more chance to stop already established threats of 'death or grave bodily harm' and the ability to use same.
 
That's what I meant, but you said it better, I believe.

What I meant (to elaborate a bit) is that if you are drawing your weapon for use under those circumstances, the chance of being charged with brandishing is actually quite low to non-existent--at least, in most States.
 
From my training, if you are convinced the BG is going to harm or kill you,
that is reason enough to draw and fire. You are under no obligation to yell stop, or reason with the sucker, he has already made the threat and can pay the consequences.

I am sure though that the DA will ask you later if you felt the BG was going to harm you, and did you feal fearful for your life. Better have the right answer.

However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car.

Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time. Of course I am sitting here calmly at the keyboard, and who knows how I would feel when I suddenly realized, "Geeze that BOZO is going to kill me?" I have a feeling one would just react to save his own life and never give thought about any resulting charges.

A leo I know told me, "If you are going to carry you better decide NOW that you are going to shoot. If you can't do that, don't carry! "

I have never felt the need to use a gun for defense.
 
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Only been carrying for a few years but havn't had to unholster, did reach 1 time when I was out with family at campground. Van with some guys kept driving by ,where my parents were taking down camp, and looking at parents. When Dad would make eye contact the van would speed up and then come back around. Did this about 4 times before Dad came to lake side to let me Know what was going on. Just as I got to the table the van showed up again. I had hand on 1911 on the side facing away from van. Had longer flannel shirt on. I asked the guy on the passenger side of the van if he needed something or if they were waiting for our spot. No answer told them we were leaving in about 20 min and the site would be open if they wanted it. No answer just a weird look and they drove off.
Dad said it looked like I was scratching my side when I asked if he could tell that I had my hand on the 1911. Him being LEO for 23 yrs and now ret.
We left but did not see the van anywhere on the way out and we were the only ones in the campground at the time all other sites were empty.
Sad thing is in the campground because it is national forrest you can't have the gun loaded or even have full clip in gun. Thought about that afterwards and thought how much time it would have taken to dump empty clip and lock and load new clip and round. Been practicing that now for when we do go back to the campground. Any hints on that situation?
Did notify PD about incident. No plate to give ad it was so dirty couldn't read it but did get good look at passenger.
If it would have happened during set up we would have broken camp and left.
 
Been carrying since 1979. My wife (girlfriend at the time) and I were walking her dog, a deaf dalmation,when we were confronted with a not too happy german shepard. The dog was not leashed and was giving us a pretty good display. To make matters worse , being deaf , the dalmation totally ignored the shepards aggressive behavior. I positioned myself between the shepard and my wife , gripped my .45 and stood at a quartering angle to the approaching dog. I shouted "no" at the dog , but it didn't even make it hesitate. I drew my wepon ,
and shouted again. That dog stopped like someone stepped on his leash, growled and stood there looking at us. It was like he knew something was up , but he wasn't quite sure what. My wife kept walking and it all stopped as quick as it started. The sad part is that IF I had fired a shot to protect myself or my wife , I would have more than likely had my permit suspended or revoked for discharging a firearm within the town limits (residential neighborhood).
 
Pretty damn fast to have the situation evaporate in about 1.5 seconds.
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And yet, we comment endlessy on the Tueller Drill, whereby a threat can close in 1.5 seconds.

Then you need to practice your draw.
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Right, because we're all such accomplished 'quick-draw' artists that we will have vanquished our opponents before they know what hit them - in spite of covering garments, people in the area like a child at your side, being momentarily surprised, whatever - it's not a perfect world my friends where we're instantaneously ready for everything and anything, no matter what your situational readiness is.

There seems to be a reluctance being displayed that is "I don't want to shoot".
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Well, I'd rather not! But I will, and have no hesitation, if I have to.

Unlike the police who may threaten to fire, for a CCW person the crime is called ‘brandishing’.
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Not if you're in fear for your life or another's.


However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car. Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time.
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Exactly! That's all I was saying - while it may be necessary to shoot immedialtely upon full presentation, the threat may have evaporated as well, I simply disagree with the dictum of 'if draw, then shoot' for me it's, 'if draw, I'm ready and willing to shoot, if it's still necessary'.

And, AFS, I mean no disrespect to your experiences, they obviously worked and you're still here - chalk one (two!) up for the good guy! I just don't want to see any of our armed bretheren get into trouble by going beyond 'reasonable and prudent'. By choosing to carry, we're under a microscope and we must be able to clearly articulate, and present evidence of, a threat that caused us to draw and/or shoot if such a situation should ever arise. I strongly believe that I cannot merely say that I was in fear of my life and therefore had to draw and shoot - without regard to what happened in the interval between the draw and shot, too many variables. Drawing-and-shooting are not one act, they are two separate acts, each with their own reasoning.
 
no problem at all.
I really do respect your opinion.
One thing I may have left out is that I don't draw until i'm prepared to shoot.
I just may be the last guy to present his weapon.

AFS
 
CCW'ing 9.5 years.

Zero Draws.

Renders remaining questions moot.

:)

Do not draw unless your in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, AND your fear is both reasonable, and of imminent harm.
 
Self defense fallacies

From reading some of these posts, it seems the general idea is that once a person is scared, then that justifies them to draw their weapon and deal with the cause of their fear. I am writing this post to impress upon you that in addition to fear, there must be three or sometimes four things that must be present.

The first is oportunity. If the cause of your fear has the means of killing or maiming you, then he/she has satisfied that requirement.

The second is threat. Some call it manifest intent. This means that there should be an actual threat againts you, wheter verbal or in action.

The third is ability. As is implied, the threat must be able to cause grave bodily harm.

Some states require the fourth, which is retreat or preclusion.

The first three items must be present together before you can use deadly force. For example an unhappy boyfriend armed with a baseball bat at the base of an apartement building yelling threats at his girlfriend on the fith floor balcony, may have the intent and ability to cause harm to the woman, but since he is downstairs, has no opportunity to inflict said harm.

Another example is, a bummy looking character might be seen with a large knive/machete proceding towards a cashier in a store. One might assume he is going to rob the place when infact he is just trying to purchase the tool, to do some gardening at his house. In that case ability and opportunity are present, but there is no threat, even though you get scared. Obviously your situation awareness should cause you to be examine the situation more closely.

A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.

These are just a few examples that may not warrant a deadly force defense. I am a minority, and during the week I am usually dressed buisnes casually. But during the weekends, I do alot of handi-man type work. I usually go to the hardware store alot. Sometimes I see ladies trying to carry heavy tools or materials. I wish I could help them, but I am more scared that they would think that I am trying to rob them, than help them. I know its sad, but I rather watch them struggle, than try to be a good Samaritan and end up a holey mess.

Now, I will say that, if these 3 tests are met, and you draw your weapon, if these conditions remain after you draw, then you have every right to shoot. If you are in those states that require you to run, then you must attempt to retreat before you shoot, IF YOU CAN DO IT SAFELY.

Be safe y'all.
 
Nug_38; that was masterful.

But, sadly, some kids in Lancaster proved you wrong....
A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.
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7 year was shot on a school bus yesterday.
 
CCw for about 11 years. drawn more than a few times. only presented a couple of more times. I manage property, sometimes people try to take the rent money. only brought it to bear twice.

Most of the times I have drawn it has been winter and I feel I need to have it more ready than under a coat and a pullover. Unseen voices in the hall way. lights out that should be on. That sort of thing, I pull it out and either carry against my leg or tuck it under the open coat. Sometimes shield it with the clip board.

Have just let it be shown to squash some kids Ideas that talking about ripping off the man are not wise topics.

Presented it once to three brothers who were living without permission (lease was for their mom and younger daughter not them) They were given notice of intent to evict.
My mistake was to make their stop my first, gave them time to sulk and get pumped up. I should have collected the building and then stopped at their door. But I came down the stairs and the light was out. I back tracked and called 911 and spoke loudly to the operator why I was calling and let her know i had a gun. I turned around and saw the oldest two were coming up the far stairs and one had a pipe/club in his hands. Bacled up to the door of one of the good tenants and kicked on her door with my heel and she opened up and I backed in with my gun out and phone in my ear. Slammed the door and waited for the cops, they beat on the door and told me i was a Pu**Y for hiding in a womans Apt. I told her I was sorry but they would be going to jail today. cops showed up in force took them all away. surprise the older two both had outstanding warrants in three states.

Mom was hauled too for harboring wanted fugitive, turned out she had warrants too. We petitioned for and got alternative eviction, meaning no waiting period. they were moved out in one day.

I was not looking to shoot, but I was of the mindset If they get in the door before the cops show. I shoot.
 
CCW tips

I have a ccw and I live in Arizona. I DO NOT carry it concealed!!! What is the point of having a concealed weapon? Can anyone answer me that? I carry mine on my hip and in plain view for all to see. I have NEVER had to pull it out of my holster!!! I have been at gas stations late at night filling up the car and have been eyeballed by a bunch of gangbangers. The second I got out of my car and they saw my 1911-A1 Cocked and Locked they moved on in a hurry!!!

When I went through my course the NRA instructor told us to carry it in plain view. If you do get in a situation where you need to get to your pistol fast, it better be on your hip with one in the chamber!!! You should take defensive pistol courses from NRA Certified Instructors and you should practice pulling it out of the holster on a regular basis. God forbid you should ever have to actually go for your gun. But, if you do you better be prepared to KILL!!! Carry your sidearm with the best defensive deadly ammunition you can buy! I personally call them "hang nasties".

If you have to pull out your piece and point it at a person, DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger!!!!

An armed society is a polite society!!!

Cliff
 
"What is the point of having a concealed weapon?"


While open carry is legal in Virginia, it is not a great idea in the more urban areas of the state.
The Virginia Civil Defense League (VCDL) often has 'events' were they open carry to show that they can, even in restaurants that serve alcohol (concealed carry is prohibited i any place that serves alcohol).

I prefer not to advertise that I am carrying a weapon.
 
I live in Arizona

Having a gun on ones hip is very common is AZ. The only people that freak out are the "Snowbirds" we get when it isn't summer and hotter than hell. I also look like an off duty officer so there really isn't a problem. As I stated in my last post, if I get into trouble I want it ready to go, end of story.

Lifetime NRA member,

Cliff

P.S. Arizona is a great state and I concider it a State that our Forfathers intended our Great Counrty to be like.
 
I have only had to draw a weapon twice in public. Both times I was working armed security at a local restaurant.

The first time there was a shooting across the street.
The second, I drew due to a threat from a MV.

W
 
Though the laws vary from State to State, theirs Case law and Statute law,the one post concerning Ability,Intent,and Opportunity are tied into the Statute,the more familiar one is with Both of these,the better,and those case laws can be modified. I've been carrying 16 years,16 hrs a day,and only twice did i have to put my hand on a gun but didn't raise it or point it at the person but showed the butt when i went through 2 Death threats,where at first they had Ability,intent and Opportunity at first,but the last one was starting to go away,so i did not escalate it....the if you draw you better shoot,i'd advise against...if you can,get distance and retreat,even if your not bound to retreat,such as in a house or at a place of employment where not bound to retreat(this means if the person at the employment accosting you has a Legal right also to work there),retreating is best in all times (unless cornered and you can't)......the right to draw is not a right to shoot by the law.......A avoid the neighborhood or threat,even if the shoot would be justifiable in a bad neighborhood,you go in there on purpose knowing,it and the detectives will ask,the (Well its america and i have aright to go where i want),Retreat also can mean a PRedetermined mindset to avoid where you think their is a heightened threat,but take no precautions as a prudent and reasonable person would....the law says....Ability,Intent and Opportunity,and more get into trouble with having the first 2 without the third.....the opportunity wasnt there by the law,but was just FELT......reasonable and prudent doesn't mean what WE FEEL it is,its if it lines up with the Statutes and Case law.... one would need All 3,i agree with the last post ,yet one of another group of 4 HAS to be present to go with the First 3/of 3.......REalistic threat of Murder,kidnapping,rape,or grave/bodily injury OR ANY 1 or more of those to injure another that you may defend at no GREATER degree than your own(=that they could do if they had the gun to defend themselves)....Even if the circumstances have the 3/3 intent,etc......and 1 or more of the other 4,this satisfies the statutes if the defendant is not Able to mitigate by surrending a Thing or by retreating.....(forget defense of property even when allowed,a prosecutor can ask one question,though allowed,was the penalty of stealing your tv punishable in court with execution,if you say no,then excessive force could still be brought up at least,if you say yes,then why aren't all thefts arrests executed in courts today?...That last one opportunity is the hardest to discern,Example,
a man breaks into your house saying he will rape your wife and kill you and cripple your kids after he kidnaps them,threating all 4 of the first 4,then has intent and ability to do so as he comes in with a bat.....Rather than firing off the get go,thinking better him than us,Instead you retreat to a safe room provided their is distance and say stop i really don't want to shoot you,or i don't want any trouble,don't panic thinking you have no time,sometimes you do(i don't mean a carjack with a knife already 1 inch from your throat with your gun in hand) and the guy in the house about to attack ,the opportunity it seemed he had starts to go away as he freezes and doesn't leave but doesn't advance.........the if i draw,i shoot philosophy has a weakness there.......or even more so what if he starts backing down but you shoot just from fear and instinct,and turns around and gets shot near or in the back.......Some may say well he shouldn't have come in its his own fault,but a judge may not feel that way,so warnings are good first,the proof is cops mostly always do it......stop or we will shoot......they dont shoot then ask questions later,unless shot at or attacked with a knife and unless its a gun they go against they warn....even sometimes with a gun against them if its not pointed at them,they give one chance to drop it,then if they don't ,then they get Shot.Forgive me for this long post,i'd like to finish with this: the Closest call i had was this,i'll list in in the next post for those who are interested.
 
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