Thinking about a Glock19
- Thread starter Alan0354
- Start date
I wrote this an hour ago, thought it was too long and put it aside. Well here we go. Read or don't read as you see it. Also, this is me doing the best I can without going full blown term paper. I believe the information below to be overall correct and get the main points across.
I think with regards to Alan a little clarification might help. Someone used to hammer fired pistols of 30 years ago when they see the term double action only (DAO) and think of a revolver or similar are likely imagining something that doesn't work the same as the striker fired pistols that are marketed and sold as DAO today.
A typically hammer fired DAO means that the trigger pull is accomplishing two actions. It's both cocking and releasing the hammer. The trigger pulls are generally long and kind of heavy. If the hammer falls on a round that is a dud the round will not go off, but another press of the trigger will cause the hammer to fall again (for a revolver the cylinder would rotate, for a hammer fired DAO semiautomatic pistol the hammer falls on the same round).
That's not how most of the striker fired pistols that are marketed as DAO function. Besides the fact that they have a striker, the strikers are typically cocked to some extent (the P99 mentioned above being a good example of an exception). The degree to which the strikers are cocked varies by manufacturer, but typically speaking the strikers are partially cocked (unlike a revolver)and there usually is no manual safety (there are exceptions, such as the Army's M17 with safety).
Now this isn't exactly the same as a 1911 or other single-action-only pistol. Again the trigger press is partially finishing the cocking of the striker. The trigger pulls on these pistols are generally a bit heavier, travel farther, and are not as crisp as a nice 1911 trigger.
A Glock or other DAO pistol of the same type achieves some cocking of the striker per the rearward cycling of the slide, as TBM pointed out. What this does mean is unlike most hammer fired DAO pistol sor a revolver, if the striker falls and the round does not go off, the trigger cannot be pressed again. Without the slide having cycled the striker hasn't been pretensioned. This means in the event of a dud round (failure to fire) the user has to manually cycle the slide, which ejects the dud round and feeds a new round into the chamber.
As I mentioned above some pistols of this type have the striker cocked to differing degrees. Some, such as the VP9, PPQ, P320, etc, have a striker that is mostly if not completely cocked at rest. Frankly this level of tension in the striker at rest isn't always obvious to the user. Manufacturers often don't specify the percentage to which the striker is cocked and as the end user this difference isn't always readily apparent to the user. Again, the triggers are roughly the same weight, though the lengths of travel and crispness of the break will differ. Generally speaking the pistols with strikers that are mostly cocked have better triggers.
So is all of this unsafe? It might seem like it compared to a DA/SA pistol. A few things to keep in mind. The pistols in question have internal safeties. These generally include a means to prevent the striker from going forward unless the trigger is being pulled (striker block) and a means to prevent the trigger being pressed to the rear from momentum if the pistol was dropped (this generally manifests in a tab on the face or the trigger or an articulated trigger). In terms of drop safety these pistols are generally fine.
Now will these firearms go off if you press the trigger? Yes. So will a DA/SA pistol such as a SIG P226. Not all DA/SA pistols incorporate a manual safety like your S&W 659 or Walther PPK. A number of them simply use the heavy weight of the first trigger pull as a form of safety. So then the question becomes is the 5.5 - 6 lb. trigger of a Glock (or similar) and the travel required to get that trigger to cock the striker fully and release it safe enough. For many people it seems to be. These pistols have come to dominate law enforcement sales for decades now and in the litigious times we live in if these pistols were proven to be very dangerous their use would have ceased by now. There are of course examples of negligence and they can be found in stories online.
I carried DA/SA SIGs and HKs for many years. I now carry a Glock. Now does a DA/SA pistol require more force on the part of the shooter to get the firearm to discharge for that first shot? Yes. I will say that I have used DA/SA pistols converted to use UTM cartridges for force on force training scenarios. In those scenarios with my adrenaline going the weight of that first trigger pull didn't even register to me. If I had my finger on that trigger and started pressing it there was no way it was going to stop me unless it was so heavy that I was physically incapable of moving the trigger. The real important part of firearm safety, DA/SA or not, is to keep your finger off that trigger if you don't intend to fire. Now of course, people make mistakes and might put that finger on the trigger without meaning to. But the triggers on the pistols we're talking about aren't so light or short in travel as for just placing a finger on the trigger to result in the firearm discharging (you should hopefully be able to see this for yourself in stores if the clerks let you dry fire the pistol).
People switching to Glocks and other pistols really isn't about being "macho". Generally speaking that first trigger press on a Glock is easier than a DA first trigger. That first shot can be pretty important, and if you're convinced the weight and length of travel of a Glock or similar are such that you won't discharge it negligently, the potentially greater accuracy of an easier first shot seems appealing. I'd also note, that a Glock trigger is generally heavier and longer than the SA on most DA/SA pistols. So you have that same level of safety for each shot. Lastly, it's generally easier to maintain proficiency on something that only has one trigger pull than on something that has two. Frankly I can shoot less with my Glocks and still maintain the same proficiency as I did with my DA/SA pistols.
What is the point of me saying all of the above? I'm trying to give you an idea on the differences. The reason I am doing this is we're at post 150 and you're waffling between two pretty different manuals of arms, one of which haven't used before. That's not unusual for someone in your position, but when you don't know which manual of arms you want it makes picking a pistol pretty darn hard. Some people will read what I wrote above and absent any technical inaccuracies on my part they'll decide they still want the added safety of a DA first pull. That's fine. If you have a manual of arms you're comfortable with, and it sounds like you do, I think there's some validity to staying with that. If you are considering switching, maybe the above will give you some insight into what that will be like and why you might want to.
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I think with regards to Alan a little clarification might help. Someone used to hammer fired pistols of 30 years ago when they see the term double action only (DAO) and think of a revolver or similar are likely imagining something that doesn't work the same as the striker fired pistols that are marketed and sold as DAO today.
A typically hammer fired DAO means that the trigger pull is accomplishing two actions. It's both cocking and releasing the hammer. The trigger pulls are generally long and kind of heavy. If the hammer falls on a round that is a dud the round will not go off, but another press of the trigger will cause the hammer to fall again (for a revolver the cylinder would rotate, for a hammer fired DAO semiautomatic pistol the hammer falls on the same round).
That's not how most of the striker fired pistols that are marketed as DAO function. Besides the fact that they have a striker, the strikers are typically cocked to some extent (the P99 mentioned above being a good example of an exception). The degree to which the strikers are cocked varies by manufacturer, but typically speaking the strikers are partially cocked (unlike a revolver)and there usually is no manual safety (there are exceptions, such as the Army's M17 with safety).
Now this isn't exactly the same as a 1911 or other single-action-only pistol. Again the trigger press is partially finishing the cocking of the striker. The trigger pulls on these pistols are generally a bit heavier, travel farther, and are not as crisp as a nice 1911 trigger.
A Glock or other DAO pistol of the same type achieves some cocking of the striker per the rearward cycling of the slide, as TBM pointed out. What this does mean is unlike most hammer fired DAO pistol sor a revolver, if the striker falls and the round does not go off, the trigger cannot be pressed again. Without the slide having cycled the striker hasn't been pretensioned. This means in the event of a dud round (failure to fire) the user has to manually cycle the slide, which ejects the dud round and feeds a new round into the chamber.
As I mentioned above some pistols of this type have the striker cocked to differing degrees. Some, such as the VP9, PPQ, P320, etc, have a striker that is mostly if not completely cocked at rest. Frankly this level of tension in the striker at rest isn't always obvious to the user. Manufacturers often don't specify the percentage to which the striker is cocked and as the end user this difference isn't always readily apparent to the user. Again, the triggers are roughly the same weight, though the lengths of travel and crispness of the break will differ. Generally speaking the pistols with strikers that are mostly cocked have better triggers.
So is all of this unsafe? It might seem like it compared to a DA/SA pistol. A few things to keep in mind. The pistols in question have internal safeties. These generally include a means to prevent the striker from going forward unless the trigger is being pulled (striker block) and a means to prevent the trigger being pressed to the rear from momentum if the pistol was dropped (this generally manifests in a tab on the face or the trigger or an articulated trigger). In terms of drop safety these pistols are generally fine.
Now will these firearms go off if you press the trigger? Yes. So will a DA/SA pistol such as a SIG P226. Not all DA/SA pistols incorporate a manual safety like your S&W 659 or Walther PPK. A number of them simply use the heavy weight of the first trigger pull as a form of safety. So then the question becomes is the 5.5 - 6 lb. trigger of a Glock (or similar) and the travel required to get that trigger to cock the striker fully and release it safe enough. For many people it seems to be. These pistols have come to dominate law enforcement sales for decades now and in the litigious times we live in if these pistols were proven to be very dangerous their use would have ceased by now. There are of course examples of negligence and they can be found in stories online.
I carried DA/SA SIGs and HKs for many years. I now carry a Glock. Now does a DA/SA pistol require more force on the part of the shooter to get the firearm to discharge for that first shot? Yes. I will say that I have used DA/SA pistols converted to use UTM cartridges for force on force training scenarios. In those scenarios with my adrenaline going the weight of that first trigger pull didn't even register to me. If I had my finger on that trigger and started pressing it there was no way it was going to stop me unless it was so heavy that I was physically incapable of moving the trigger. The real important part of firearm safety, DA/SA or not, is to keep your finger off that trigger if you don't intend to fire. Now of course, people make mistakes and might put that finger on the trigger without meaning to. But the triggers on the pistols we're talking about aren't so light or short in travel as for just placing a finger on the trigger to result in the firearm discharging (you should hopefully be able to see this for yourself in stores if the clerks let you dry fire the pistol).
People switching to Glocks and other pistols really isn't about being "macho". Generally speaking that first trigger press on a Glock is easier than a DA first trigger. That first shot can be pretty important, and if you're convinced the weight and length of travel of a Glock or similar are such that you won't discharge it negligently, the potentially greater accuracy of an easier first shot seems appealing. I'd also note, that a Glock trigger is generally heavier and longer than the SA on most DA/SA pistols. So you have that same level of safety for each shot. Lastly, it's generally easier to maintain proficiency on something that only has one trigger pull than on something that has two. Frankly I can shoot less with my Glocks and still maintain the same proficiency as I did with my DA/SA pistols.
What is the point of me saying all of the above? I'm trying to give you an idea on the differences. The reason I am doing this is we're at post 150 and you're waffling between two pretty different manuals of arms, one of which haven't used before. That's not unusual for someone in your position, but when you don't know which manual of arms you want it makes picking a pistol pretty darn hard. Some people will read what I wrote above and absent any technical inaccuracies on my part they'll decide they still want the added safety of a DA first pull. That's fine. If you have a manual of arms you're comfortable with, and it sounds like you do, I think there's some validity to staying with that. If you are considering switching, maybe the above will give you some insight into what that will be like and why you might want to.
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Thanks so much TunnelRat for taking the time to write this. I read the whole thing. I am inclined to make the appointment to buy the Glock. It might sounds like I am making a big deal, but it's not the end of the world if I buy it and don't like it. After all, there's only one way to find out.
A lot of people finding it's important to like the feel of the gun and all, I found it's all about getting used to it. I can shoot from the big Colt Trooper to the little Freedom Arm .22Mag just as easy ( well of cause you don't expect they are same accuracy). Just a matter finding the way to hold it and practice.
Worst come to worst is NOT loading the chamber, it's still not the end of the world.
A lot of people finding it's important to like the feel of the gun and all, I found it's all about getting used to it. I can shoot from the big Colt Trooper to the little Freedom Arm .22Mag just as easy ( well of cause you don't expect they are same accuracy). Just a matter finding the way to hold it and practice.
Worst come to worst is NOT loading the chamber, it's still not the end of the world.
One question that slipped me, why we have shortage on stuffs for reloading? No first time buyers will touch reloading. Also, I would think when comes to self defense, you always buy factory rounds instead of trusting reloads.
What is shortage in reloading? primers? bullet heads, explosives or what? Excuse me on the names, never got into reloading in my life.
What is shortage in reloading? primers? bullet heads, explosives or what? Excuse me on the names, never got into reloading in my life.
When ammunition shortages come about (and there was one after the Newtown shooting as well, though not as dramatic as this one) the reloading components that might be offered for sale are instead kept to fill orders for ammunition. Federal sells primers. When Federal has a backlog of $1 billion worth of ammunition orders they put less emphasis on making primers available rather than filling those orders.
While you’re right that brand new shooters generally won’t reload, you also have shooters that would normally buy factory ammunition that have been shooting for some time. When shortages happen those shooters might decide to pick up reloading. Whereas before the cost difference wasn’t worth it to them either the rising prices or lack of supply encourages them to do this.
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No pics in this long thread ?
Here’s the gen 3 I bought just a few months ago
I’ve had a gen 3 G17 for 12 years which has served me well, without a single glitch. I expect this 19 to be just as reliable
This is pretty. I wish I can get one like this. The ones I can buy are all just black.
Willie Lowman
New member
No it is not any safer. You keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot with any gun.
The appeal of Glocks and pretty much every other striker fired gun is the trigger pull is always the same. There is no change from long heavy double action to light single action. It is consistent.
Agreed
Me personally, I can't stand DA/SA autos
That is one of the reasons Ive converted all of my "shooter" Beretta 92's to double action only
I love it's pull with the G spring... fantastic
Well, I made the appointment to go buy the 26. Get it before they all got banned.
Right now, I am holding my like S&W36 snuby, I can tell you all the talk about the Glock having a more slanted butt are more nitpicking than anything. The butt of the snub nose is even more slanted than the Glock!!! I have to take out the bigger revolvers to check, but that's very standard for revolvers. It seems to be more the older generation semi auto have straight butt and people get used to it.
I notice I have to pay attention to tip the snuby down to aim right.
Look at how slanted is the butt:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=112763&stc=1&d=1611702832
Right now, I am holding my like S&W36 snuby, I can tell you all the talk about the Glock having a more slanted butt are more nitpicking than anything. The butt of the snub nose is even more slanted than the Glock!!! I have to take out the bigger revolvers to check, but that's very standard for revolvers. It seems to be more the older generation semi auto have straight butt and people get used to it.
I notice I have to pay attention to tip the snuby down to aim right.
Look at how slanted is the butt:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=112763&stc=1&d=1611702832
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I am just thinking about the kaboom, I looked at quite a few pictures. Is it most likely happened with reloads? I saw pictures quite a few blew up at 6o'clock where the feed ramp is, there is less support there regardless of gun brands. Could it be people reload the same shell over and over and the brass just got stressed out and blow?
I read they said you can only reload a shell about 20 times and it's time to dump it away, but do people observe that? Particular those days when I bought reloads from the store, they took back the empty shell to reload. They never asked or know how many times the shell has been reloaded. There's no way they can know. For private people reloading also, how are you going to keep tract of how many times each shell is reloaded? All it takes is one fell through the cracks and you can get metal fatigue. Just thinking out loud.
I read they said you can only reload a shell about 20 times and it's time to dump it away, but do people observe that? Particular those days when I bought reloads from the store, they took back the empty shell to reload. They never asked or know how many times the shell has been reloaded. There's no way they can know. For private people reloading also, how are you going to keep tract of how many times each shell is reloaded? All it takes is one fell through the cracks and you can get metal fatigue. Just thinking out loud.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Don't overthink it. (Says I, Charter Member of Overthinkers Anonymous....) I'm just a net-surfing pencil-pusher, but my impression of the kaboom issue is that it primarily manifested itself in early .40 cal. Glocks that didn't have proper chamber support. I don't think it was a big problem in 9mm Glocks. I'm not saying 9mm kabooms haven't happened, but I don't think they're very common.
I'm not anything close to being an expert, so if someone out there knows better, please correct me.
I'm not anything close to being an expert, so if someone out there knows better, please correct me.
highpower3006
New member
OP, it sounds like you are locked in a classic "paralysis by analysis" scenario. My take on it is to just get a G19, which is far more versatile than a G26 and put a few hundred rounds through it without altering it. If you don't like it, you can pretty much sell it for what you paid.
My getting a Glock is a similar story to yours, perhaps I can offer some insight.
When I left the PRC back 15 year ago I got back in to guns as a hobby / pastime. I was in the PRC for about 20 years.
The purchase of the Glock was for concealed carry, since I could now legally carry a gun.
The Glock trigger dingus safety was way outside my comfort zone. A good IWB horsehide holster solved the issue for me.
My wife is a darn good shot, but does not have my enthusiasm for firearms. She is a smart and practical lady. She showed interest in learning the ways of the Glock.
She loved the simplicity, nothing to "remember" point at bad guy, pull trigger. Initially "no safety" scared her. She became comfortable and proficient with the Glock like falling off a log.
My take is a lot of folks are similar. I better understand how Glock has dominated LE sales. High quality and simplicity at reasonable cost.
When I left the PRC back 15 year ago I got back in to guns as a hobby / pastime. I was in the PRC for about 20 years.
The purchase of the Glock was for concealed carry, since I could now legally carry a gun.
The Glock trigger dingus safety was way outside my comfort zone. A good IWB horsehide holster solved the issue for me.
My wife is a darn good shot, but does not have my enthusiasm for firearms. She is a smart and practical lady. She showed interest in learning the ways of the Glock.
She loved the simplicity, nothing to "remember" point at bad guy, pull trigger. Initially "no safety" scared her. She became comfortable and proficient with the Glock like falling off a log.
My take is a lot of folks are similar. I better understand how Glock has dominated LE sales. High quality and simplicity at reasonable cost.
Ha ha, I am talking out loud while I am waiting to buy the Glock 26. I already decided on the Glock 26, it's just the matter of waiting for the appointment on Tuesday to buy. I hate that because of the covid 19, they only take appointment to buy guns!!!
Yes, I read enough about Kaboom, every brand has kaboom. That's the reason I am thinking about the reason. I want to hear from people with experience whether that happened with mostly reloads.
That is very logical, there's no way for anyone to keep track of every single shell to make sure they only get reload 20 times and no more. All it takes is one got reloaded too many times to go Kaboom.
I don't reload, I did buy reloads for target shooting, some of the casing looked really old. Even new factory bullets, I can see they kind of expand a little after shooting. That's how it is. It is a controlled explosion!!! Those casing are very thin, they are supposed to expand. I don't even buy what some said Glock make their chamber slightly bigger than others, that's why it has more Kaboom.
I still have almost 3 weeks to wait for the Glock 26!!
I know, sounds like I am going back and fore and talk on both sides. But I think deep down, I want a Glock. That was the last gun I kicked myself that I did not buy before I left the gun scene, I've been thinking about a Glock all these years. I guess I just want one for the better or worst.
Now, I have to move on and think about how am I going to get bullets. I found a little over 2 bags of old reloads, I don't want to shoot them up. Then two boxes of Federal Hi Power, I am not going to touch that, those are for self defense. That's it!!! Now what?
I might have a Glock that I can only dry fire like a toy gun!!! Speaking of that, why people against dry firing? It's not as if you can break it. It's no different from firing a toy gun. Why should it break?
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Dryfiring stresses a gun in ways that firing it does not. Firing a gun stresses it in ways that dryfiring does not.
If a gun is designed to tolerate dryfire it should hold up well, within reason. Everything wears out eventually, even when used in accordance with the design parameters.
If a gun is designed to tolerate dryfire it should hold up well, within reason. Everything wears out eventually, even when used in accordance with the design parameters.
Glad you made a decision, Alan. Sorry you have to wait so stinkin* long to get yours. Here in KY, if the retailer has it on the shelf, it’s usually no more than 30 minutes for NICS check and the cashier to out the door.
These days, the guns seems to be easier to find than the ammo to feed it.
These days, the guns seems to be easier to find than the ammo to feed it.
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I don't even know what is the waiting period before I can take it home. It used to be 15 days. I wonder what it is now.
Once I decided, I can't wait.