The "whats your life worth" stuff needs to end

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Well said buck (although WWB is FMJ, and corbon is HP, which means...). Many other people in this thread have made sense too.

From the start, I figured this thread was about "how much is your life worth" when I made that same statement, just a few days ago. In that example, someone bought a gun, saved money, and then proceeded to "smooth out" the internals using a dremel tool.

My philosophy pure and simple was: hey, thats your CCW bud, do you really think a gun that probably needed the work that you did was a wise choice? If your budget is $200 or $800, there are wise choices and poor choices. My opinion was that saving money on a carry gun can be risky. On the other hand, I do not feel there is a set amount that has to be spent on a CCW. In some ways, we are all in agreement. The person that wants to save money shouldn't discount reliability, platform, warranty, design etc, because it goes against the purpose of getting the CCW to begin with.

To show that I'm not a snob (Marine6680 reaffirmed that he didn't mean about anyone who posted specifically) I have heard a lot of good things about a Taurus 85. If someone had one, and they claimed it worked perfectly, I would never say "get a glock" or anything. If it works, it works. Many people swear by their Taurus 85. I don't have personal experience with one, but most of the "my taurus failed me" threads are not about an 85 that I've seen.

A friend of mine at work who is into guns and cars always says "you always will have money for what you truly want" and I have found that to be true 98% of the time. I bought a used 7 year old car with low miles, I don't have any fancy clothes, and I don't own much jewelry. Why? Because I wanted to collect guns. I want to put the bulk of my money into vintage or collectible guns. Because of my choices, I found money whereas other people used the same money for designer clothing, a rolex, and a new lexus. These same people are mystified why I have a stream of gun money, and yet they do not. Of course, nothing is wrong with that, but the key here is to properly acknowledge where your money is going when you don't have enough. Some do have too little coming in and others let way too much go out. The too-much-outers rarely see the problem, and so they are unable to change, or they may see it, and rationalize it "but hey, I gotta have fun".

When the money saved allows for the item to have a flaw which goes against its intended purpose, I think it to be a more expensive choice in the long run.

A quick story - my parents recently were robbed. Money, jewelry, two handguns, etc. My dad had $5k in an envelope in his safe, don't ask why. Years before, my parents being frugal, decided to buy a safe, but it had to be a cheap enough one for them. They got a whatever brand X, and when the perp came in, he was able to PRY OPEN THE DOOR of their safe, thereby costing them $5k because they chose to save around $100 years before. Their frugality really gave them a big loss in the end. I look at a CCW the same way. They could have got a better designed higher quality safe for not a lot of money IMO but since their penny pinching resulted in a poor design, their worst fears of "money wasted" were realized more than 10 fold.

Buying the cheaper gun first can be the same way. Sometimes when people get to know guns better, they go for the better one. Often that same person loses a fair amount on the first. I am one of the people who bought quality from the beginning: my first rifle a 9422 and my first handgun a ruger SS MKIII 22. I still have both, and continued down the same path, with no regrets. Am I a gun snob? No, I think not. I have only tried to pass onto others what I have had work well for me in my own life. That is all.
 
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Just because a person bought a "pretty" gun or a high performance car doesn't make him a "snob". I've come to understand that there is such a thing as "reverse-snobbery"-and I find it to be just as offensive as snobbery.

I completely agree with this. The person who brags about how much they save isn't always considering the complete "pie" so to speak. If you're only concerned with the $$$ of your CCW, you are likely to get crap. There are many factors to consider, and the decision is difficult.

I don't think anything is wrong with people like my MIL who like coors light, but I much prefer Hoegaarden ale. I disregard the added cost because quality is more important to me. In my experience, people will often prefer the S&W over the Taurus or Lexus to the Toyota at some point in time, and understand that it has to cost more. These people also think it is worth it. Its important for that person to remember that other people don't have to make the same decision.

I don't put down people who don't want the finer things, which a snob does. Others are the bizarro-snob, like d-glud mentions: because that person can't afford a S&W they think they were smarter for buying a X brand. Funny how the people who paid for quality AND got it, never look back to the sour grapes person and say "ya you were right, I should have bought something cheaper". I know I never did.
 
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All I tell people is that if you cannot afford the best buy what you can, see if it shoots reliably, then don't shoot it very much, because being a bargain basement type of gun it may wear out prematurely. Most people who cannot afford expensive guns cannot afford enough ammo to wear them out which is fortunate.
 
You want to see some gun snobs join a trap and skeet club. I was a little apprehensive at 1st when I saw the $10k custom over and under's at my club. I had a Mossberg 535 pump that cost $400. Everyone looked at me like I was nut's.

After the 2nd round of trap I noticed I was beating all of them. I have the cash to get a nice over under but it's more fun this way. :)
 
I have cheaper but reliable guns even though I could afford expensive ones. You need to balance price, value and need. Several posts pointed out that they thought cheap guns will wear out faster than expensive ones. That is probably true but lifetime warranties on some negates that problem. I am almost 65 so it is unlikely I will wear out many more guns in my lifetime. My mind has changed regarding always buying the best. I replaced the roof on my house when I was in my late 50s. I had decided to buy the best that had a 50 year warranty rather than the 30 year roof. My slightly younger brother looked at me funny and asked me "Just how long do you plan on living". He had a good point and I bought the 30 year roof.

I wonder how long a well kept gun will last. I donated two old army rifles to the local museum last week. They were inherited from a cousin that died several years ago. One was a Swedish 41 caliber rim fire rifle that was made in 1888 (ammunition was discontinued in 1942). The other was a Lee-Enfield British made 303 that was made in 1941. Both of the guns were tight and appeared to be in good condition. I shot the 303 and it worked fine but I had no ammunition for the old Swedish gun. One of my shotguns is a pre 1950 Savage that is still tight and shoots fine. My other shotgun is an old Harrison Richardson that is from the late 50s to early 60s and it still shoots fine. I recall that single shot shotguns like the two I have sold for around $30 new when I was a youngster.
 
I agree Marine. Several times I have read on this forum, I wouldn't carry anything but my expensive this or that brand handgun cause bla blah yada yada. Next sentence reads but I got a Hi-Point in the glove box of my truck just in case. :rolleyes: A few years ago I had to take a delivery to the big city train station in the middle of the night in a bad area of town. My co-worker asked what kind of gun I had. A ruger single six. He let me take also the only gun he owned, a Hi-Point .380. He would have given me a more expensive gun if he owned one. A good deed from a friend.
 
To the person that was downing WWB ammo. If you gun is 45 acp or smaller you are better off with WWB than ammo that is sold as "self defense ammo" You are going to get 12" of penetration if you don't hit any large bones first. 9mm WWB blows right through a block of ballistic gelatin. An exit wound is going to do a lot more damage than the .75" larger hole a hollow point creates in 12".
 
I feel we have reached a general consensus...

1) That I went about making my point in the completely wrong direction. :eek: :p

2) That Snobbery of any kind is uncalled for, and that we want to help steer people to the best option for them that fits their budget.

(as I said in the other thread)

Instead of "whats your life worth"

Say... This is a tool that may be needed to save your life one day, make sure its up to that task. Choose wisely in a budget you can afford, holding off a few weeks to have enough for something a little better may be a better way to go. Unless of course there is an immediate know danger to yourself and you need something soon.

Sure, it doesn't roll off the tongue as well... but it more clearly states the intended goal.

And admittingly, those in immediate danger are not very likely to be on here, but those in bad neighborhoods may be. The local public library has internet access for free. :p
 
The irony is marine started a thread against "what's your life worth" which this thread is really about "what's your life worth". Same ole same ole. The best weapon you carry is your mind. A nice inexpensive reliable handgun will work just fine.
 
Instead of "whats your life worth"

Say... This is a tool that may be needed to save your life one day, make sure its up to that task. Choose wisely in a budget you can afford, holding off a few weeks to have enough for something a little better may be a better way to go. Unless of course there is an immediate know danger to yourself and you need something soon.

Sure, it doesn't roll off the tongue as well... but it more clearly states the intended goal.

So what your saying is you don't like how "how much is your life worth" sounds. (Even though you agree with the point being made when a person says it)

I tell people to save up. Sorry but if you can't put together the $$ for a used Ruger/S&W/Police trade in Glock or can't save an extra $100-$200 to buy a quality gun then how are you going to be able to afford to practice?
Shooting is a skill not a traite it must be practiced and buying a cheap gun and shoving it in a drawer "just in case" is not a wise move.

Personaly while I don't agree with the snarky attitude that follows a "what is your life worth" statment I do agree with the reasoning.
Even cheap "junk" guns only cost about $100-$200 less than an inexpensive quality weapon. For example a local chain store has Hi Points listed for $200. (not that I'm callin Hi Points junk this is just and example) and NEW Ruger P95's for $370. For only $170 more your getting a better made firearm that has better sights higher capacity etc..
And if that much money is beyond your budget than maybe just maybe you could think about your finances and reorganize your priorites.
 
You want to see some gun snobs join a trap and skeet club. I was a little apprehensive at 1st when I saw the $10k custom over and under's at my club. I had a Mossberg 535 pump that cost $400. Everyone looked at me like I was nut's.

After the 2nd round of trap I noticed I was beating all of them. I have the cash to get a nice over under but it's more fun this way.

Funny how this comment ALWAYS comes up when folks cry about those who can afford something more than they can

What needs to stop are the rants whining about the wealth envy.

I have never seen anyone with a Mossberg win the Olympics, or a state championship or even a local club league, but the Internet sure seems to have all of them right here....:rolleyes:
I would venture the folks whining about the "10K custom over unders" don't even know the brands or why those guns cost what they do (and BTW, they are not custom)

If you can't afford to buy a $150 gun, so be it - no one is going to judge you for that; however, if you made your family go hungry to buy it, you have other issues that need some serious help

What good is a gun you can't afford ammo for or practice with? There are other alternatives for defense that would seem to be a better alternative
 
So what your saying is you don't like how "how much is your life worth" sounds.
I think it's a little more than that.

The problem with using "how much is your life worth" as a debate device (argument) is that it implies that nothing is too much to spend on a self-defense tool but ignores that, in many ways, on a daily basis, people are forced to make decisions that place a value on human life.

Not all of us drive a car that has top safety rating. Not all of us have the best health insurance. Not all of us have CO detectors in our houses or a top-flight security system. We drive to work every day even though we know that driving is dangerous--we take the risk in exchange for a finite amount of pay even though our lives, which we risk by driving, are worth far more than the company could pay. We don't buy the best tires even though tires are a critical safety item. We don't always have our brakes done by the dealer--sometimes we have a discount chain work on them. The list is endless.

In a practical world, we can't spend as much as we'd like to on things that ultimately have an impact on our safety and our families' safety even though we all understand that keeping our families safe is worth more than all the money we'll ever make.

Ok, that's part 1.

Part 2 is that we often don't spend as much as we COULD (perhaps even should) on safety-related things while spending on other things which ultimately aren't critical to our safety. An example of that might be purchasing a self-defense gun made from pot metal while carrying the newest electronics gadget available. Another example might be going out to eat on a regular basis while at the same time claiming there's no money in the budget for self-defense training.

Understandably, people who consciously make decisions like that are not at all happy when they are called on them, and that's part of what makes this topic "lively". These folks don't respond by trying to justify their spending decisions, they simply accuse the folks pointing out the foolish choices of being meddlers, snobs, etc. And they'll probably throw in some comments about those who really can't afford to spend much at all, in an attempt to generate some guilt on the part of the folks implying that foolish spending is the only way someone couldn't afford a decent self-defense gun.

Part 3 is that there really ARE some folks who can't afford to spend more than a couple hundred on a self-defense handgun. Those folks are obviously going to be defensive when accused of placing a low value on their lives and the safety of their families. These folks are going to "hit back" against those they perceive to be more fortunate by pointing out that such persons aren't likely to understand the perspective of someone with truly limited finances. The guilt trip is also likely to come into play.

Then there's a basic disconnect about what constitutes quality in a self-defense firearm, the conundrum of trying to place a reasonable bottom limit on what a person should expect to spend while still getting something of reasonable quality, and probably a few more issues I haven't thought of.

Wrap it all up into one big hairy mess and there's something in there to offend nearly everyone.
 
Then there's a basic disconnect about what constitutes quality in a self-defense firearm, the conundrum of trying to place a reasonable bottom limit on what a person should expect to spend while still getting something of reasonable quality, and probably a few more issues I haven't thought of.

I would agree with that.

My main point is if you can't find, borrow, or beg an extra $100-$200 for some thing of basic quality how are you going to be able to afford the aquire and maintain any level of proficiency with said weapon.


Not all of us drive a car that has top safety rating.
Everyone would if they had seen the things I have as a Firefighter. Scrapping people off the road is part of my job and ever since I saw a double decapitation my vehicles all have high marks. Want a good car? Get one with the new Boron Steel in the frame around the passenger compartment. This stuff is so tough we are having to upgrade our extrication tools just to cut the stuff.
 
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Im 21 now, but I've lived an overall decent life. I'm really happy with it. But when people think they are better than me, I don't get that mad. I feel sorry for them, because they are so ignorant of the world. People around here aren't gun snobbs except for the occasional moron at the range, and I'm being completely honest when I refer to them as a moron. Usually for their complete lack of respect of safety. But I have had people look down at me, thinking they are better. Around here, my home town, I'm about middle class. Heck I know people that don't have running water. But no one is better than me and I'm only better than the people who ruin their lives willfully. When I was in Tennessee I remember a guy that sat next to me in class thought he was the best thing ever. He laughed when I said making $30,000 a year would make me happy. Around my home town, $20,000 is good. Also laughed at my truck and my money planning. Also thought people had to make $40,000 just to survive. Well, his plan was to learn how to work on cars so he can understand how to design them and go to school for that too meanwhile his wife was working some big job and paying for his schooling, his car, and basically everything. Well, if I knew where he is now, I'd like to call him up and laugh. I don't have my dream job yet, but I work 40 hours a week making $10 an hour and manage to support me and my wife. We are not on welfare Or on foodstamps. I've worked since I was a kid, always did my best too. Nothing is wrong with me, I work. I I'm too proud to get my money from any way other than hard earned work. I know I earn every penny I make. And getting back to this forum, I can't afford a $1000 gun. It'd take a year atleast to save that much. I really want a Model 29 or a BFR, but if I save up for anything it's gonna be reloading equipment for now.
 
Acquiring a self defense weapon should include making intelligent choices not just expediant choices. I think it's safe to say that within any reasonable budget there are good choices and poor choices for the same amount of money.

"What's your life worth" is often used by people for self justification in carrying an expensive gun - when there is no need for self justification - just carry what you want and quit making it sound like an all or nothing choice instead of a personal value judgement.

Likewise, there is the reverse snobbery of, "I could buy three of my pistol choice, a thousand rounds of ammunition, and pay for a self defense pistol course - for the cost of the high priced gun." Implying that anyone choosing to spend more money is a fool as proven by - a different personal value judgement.

My advice is to spend a little more than you think you can afford and make an intelligent choice whether that's a new or used pistol, revolver, or shotgun. Evaluate your real need - and then find the best value within your budget - not just what's the most expediant at the moment.

As for the OP's original post - a little melodramatic for me ....I could almost hear the plaintive violin score in the background....or...were they banjos...?
 
Even cheap "junk" guns only cost about $100-$200 less than an inexpensive quality weapon. For example a local chain store has Hi Points listed for $200. (not that I'm callin Hi Points junk this is just and example) and NEW Ruger P95's for $370. For only $170 more your getting a better made firearm that has better sights higher capacity etc..
And if that much money is beyond your budget than maybe just maybe you could think about your finances and reorganize your priorites.

This is what the OP was talking about. Only $170 more than the original price of ~$200? That's nearly twice as much. If he had to save a year for the $200 then he'd have to save another year for the "only" $170 more. Some people just don't get that some people can't afford to eat right now let alone spend twice as much for a gun for protection. Ever had a child or spouse that needed constant medical care?

If your choice is food/diapers for your child or a box of ammo for practice to get proficient with your gun, what do you think will be purchased? Reorganize your priorities? Really? Maybe you need to rethink how some people just do not have that extra $170 because they have other expenses that have to be paid. Yeah, he wants to protect his family. He also wants to feed them and put a roof over their head too.

Maybe you didn't lose your job in this economy but millions have. Maybe you have 5 years of money saved up but millions have exhausted their savings paying expenses like food, rent and heat because that's all that they can afford until they can find a job that pays more than $8 an hour. The OP's original rant was right on. Some people just don't have the extra $170 for that Ruger or don't have that extra $15 for a box of ammo and they get told that maybe they shouldn't have a gun because they can't afford to practice enough to satisfy you? Seriously? Yeah, there's snobs and there's people who have empathy and there are some people who just don't get it and never will because they don't know what hardship is.
 
This is what the OP was talking about. Only $170 more than the original price of ~$200? That's nearly twice as much. If he had to save a year for the $200 then he'd have to save another year for the "only" $170 more. Some people just don't get that some people can't afford to eat right now let alone spend twice as much for a gun for protection. Ever had a child or spouse that needed constant medical care?

If your choice is food/diapers for your child or a box of ammo for practice to get proficient with your gun, what do you think will be purchased? Reorganize your priorities? Really? Maybe you need to rethink how some people just do not have that extra $170 because they have other expenses that have to be paid. Yeah, he wants to protect his family. He also wants to feed them and put a roof over their head too.

Maybe you didn't lose your job in this economy but millions have. Maybe you have 5 years of money saved up but millions have exhausted their savings paying expenses like food, rent and heat because that's all that they can afford until they can find a job that pays more than $8 an hour. The OP's original rant was right on. Some people just don't have the extra $170 for that Ruger or don't have that extra $15 for a box of ammo and they get told that maybe they shouldn't have a gun because they can't afford to practice enough to satisfy you? Seriously? Yeah, there's snobs and there's people who have empathy and there are some people who just don't get it and never will because they don't know what hardship is.

Yet, somehow...they manage to find money for cigarettes and beer...new cell phones...etc. Please...quit making this sound like the choices have to be all or nothing. They're not. No one said anything about letting babies starve in the cold outdoors in order to buy a gun.

The idea that you can only afford $XX is all about choices..intelligent choices...not the dollar amount itself. If you can't really afford to buy a gun that is reliable - don't buy a gun. How about that? Relying on something with questionable performance in a life threatening situation is stupid.

For $219, or less, you can usually find a used, Ruger Service Six .38 caliber - that's not much more than the proposed target budget of $170 (how that was arrived at - I have no idea) - but, I will say that the Ruger, will be - reliable for as long as you own it and will never let you down given at least a minimum of service.

The idea that you're going to "protect your family" reliably for a period of time with a poorly chosen firearm just because you "can afford it" - is a fool's errand. Give up the beer, give up the cigarettes, give up some of the other disposable income choices. If saving your family's life isn't worth an investment in a reliable firearm - then you need to examine your priorities and choices.
 
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