The "whats your life worth" stuff needs to end

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marine6680

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Seen it mentioned again in another thread... Something along the lines of:

Why do people buy these cheap guns, whats your life worth?

It just really gets to me when I see that.

:EDIT: Some may loose my meaning in my following little/long rant... Basically I feel the whole "whats your life worth" argument is pointless. It often comes off as condescending or uninformed. Some are simply unable to spend more than a couple hundred on a firearm, and we should try to accept that and steer them in a direction of something that they can afford and will also serve them well. Be it a cheap used S&W revolver, or an even cheaper Hi-point 9mm.

There are some cheap brands to avoid, but some function well despite the low cost and crude manufacturing, and thats the most important thing.:EDIT:


(copying my post in the other thread here so more people see it)

The "whats your life worth" argument was brought back up again...

Its like some people don't understand the term "budget"...

Some people would love to own a nice HK, Sig, Colt, etc, etc... But they can't even afford to buy a used Glock.

There are people out there that find it hard to save $150 over the course of several months or more... Live paycheck to paycheck, always worried they can't pay rent this month... or the alternator on the car goes out, and now all they can afford to eat is pinto beans for the next month... You really expect them to save up $800+ for a new gun?

Then there are those that are not so bad off, but $400 dollars spent on something less than directly practical, like a tv or gun is a big consideration... and the intangible what if/maybe scenario of needing to defend oneself sometime in the unknown future is even more hard to justify.

When a bad guy is in front of you, the $150 Hi-point in your hands now... is a hell of a lot better than the $800 Sig still sitting in the display case at the gun shop.

Just because you can afford to spend the $800... even if you have to save for several months... Does not make you a better person or better as a gun owner... Don't forget that there are those much less fortunate than you... And they deserve to have the ability to defend themselves just like anyone else... they are not inferior just because they are poor.

I've lived the "pinto bean poor" life as a child... We were not on welfare or food stamps... My parents were too proud for that, both worked long hours to keep bills paid... They would work so long of hours, that me and my sister had to learn responsibility young. We got ourselves up for school and handled most of the household chores. (including cooking when we got old enough... about 12-13) I often lived in some shady trailer parks in small town Alabama... definitely some white trash places full of questionable motives.

One day when I was about 7, the sole of my shoes started coming loose, soon it got so bad that I let my parents know... my mom said I would have to wait until she could save up enough for a cheap pair, and that I might just need to use duck tape or something until then... My dad didn't like the idea of sending me off to school like that. We went to walmart and I got a cheapo pair of $10-15 shoes... that little bit of money spent on shoes wiped out our food budget, and we had to eat pinto beans every day for a week.

Did I or my family not deserve the same as everyone else? (At least within our capabilities anyway, we didn't do handouts)

Fortunately I am no longer in that situation, as I grew older, our lives improved, we managed to get into a house in a better neighborhood. I finished school and pursued well paying fields... and my mother is doing much better now. Finally got a decent paying job, and she is remarried to an engineer, they just built a real nice house as they approach retirement. She deserves it... she worked long hours sometimes two jobs and even attended college courses at night for a while.

Ok... end long tangent filled rant
 
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Well, I try to "take what's useful to me, and toss away the rest" . . . works with a lot of things, including advice from others.
 
Equipment is way down the list as for 'must haves' in survival.

And when push does come to shove it's not the 19th round in the gun that matters the most. It's the first round.

So this 'you gotta have this or DIE' stuff is well, ridiculous.

As long as the weapon is reliable, shoots strait, and is of reasonable power it don't matter.

Case in point. The Bersa CC is no where near the gun as a SIG 323 (both .380s) as for quality but I assure you the little CC will hold its own in any test of ability compared to the Sig.

And that is why the High Point, while not my idea of a top-of-the-line gun, it still will get you through the night if you an shoot.

Deaf
 
Thanks

Thanks Marine!
We must recognize that a hundred dollar bill means different things to different people. I would much rather know that the person is a gun guy or gal than the perceived quality of what they shoot.
It's much more important that they shoot!

The Hi-point. While it does not appeal to me, I would have no issue in recommending it to someone on a limited budget.

It's ugly, it's clunky, it is made with cheap materials.

But it sure works.
 
You don't like the "life worth" argument because of having been poor and you want it to stop. You having been poor isn't a good argument against that which you are complaining.

Sadly, people confuse $ with quality and they believe you get what you paid for as if $=quality on a 1:1 basis of some sort. It isn't, of course, and there is some high dollar junk out there.

If you want to argue what against the "life worth" argument, do it on a basis that just isn't to satisfy yourself that you are defending the poor. Unfortunately, too many cheap guns/weapons are crappy and a gun that doesn't work certainly may not be much better than the $800 Sig in the display case of the gun store.

What people need are guns that function reliable, regardless of cost. If your HiPoint works reliably, then good for you. Don't worry about the arguments if you can't afford a more expensive gun. You don't need to afford one. Your life is worth as much as anybody else's.
 
Excellent point, and well made. Many people can't afford any of the "accepted" firearms. Even used models. "Saving enough to buy a quality gun" is a lot more difficult for some than for those who can go buy a Sig, or Kimber, or other premium guns from their list.
 
Well, I try to "take what's useful to me, and toss away the rest" . . . works with a lot of things, including advice from others.
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Thats advice that might be worth keeping. :D

You don't like the "life worth" argument because of having been poor and you want it to stop. You having been poor isn't a good argument against that which you are complaining.
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I think you missed the point...

I was poor, so I understand what they go through, but thats not the main point.

The point is that some of the people that use the "whats your life worth" statement... use it in a judgmental manner... like they are superior due to their more expensive guns, or that the person with the cheap gun is inferior due to the choice in a cheaper gun. They equate money spent with not only "quality" as a direct relationship... the more money you spend the more quality you get, always... I.G. A $1000 Sig is always better than a $500 Glock... But it also seems to often come off as more money spent means better quality person as well.

Not always though, many are just uninformed... and just don't/can't understand the situation of not being able to afford better.

That point you seem to agree with as the rest of your post indicates... So you agree with me, I just think you lost my meaning/point in all my ramblings.

I grew up in an area that was divided amongst the haves and have nots. (and my school was a direct reflection) I lived just south of Huntville AL, in a little town. All the Aerospace and NASA engineers wanted to live away from the city and lived in communities near this little town... So you had a large group of kids who grew up getting everything they wanted, even brand new Ford SVT Mustangs and Z28 Camaros on their 16th birthdays (and replaced no matter how many times they totaled it)... The whole place, the town and school, was full of condescending <deleted> that looked down on you unless you had money just like them. Wave and shake your hand in church, but would not even look at you other times, let alone offer a helping hand. "Lets go door to door promoting our church and charity, but avoid the poor neighborhoods" type of people. Favoritism in the school, the police, everywhere... I mean our school football team never won a single game for the whole 4 years I was there because talent didn't determine if you got on the team... status did.

Growing up in a place like that, it has made me a little unfavorable of that sort of behavior. So, while I understand many don't behave like that, or even believe such, the whole "Whats your life worth" argument is never productive. It either comes off as condescending or uninformed.

(see another tagent :p)


To many others to quote, I will just respond in general:

I have several firearms... have owned several more. Most have been good quality pieces, but rarely "high end" like HK or Sig.

I have owned a Springfield XD, a Rock River Arms AR, I currently have two CZ 75s... (just a short non-comprehensive list) Not top of the line high dollar stuff, but most would not argue that they are poor firearms.

I never really looked at a Hi-point as a viable purchase... nor have I been limited to such firearms as all I could afford.

But I do own a Hi-point carbine, a recent purchace... simply because so many people had so much good to say about them, and I wanted a pistol caliber carbine as a range toy. (plus the Kel tek Sub2K was nowhere to be found)

I now see Hi-point as a viable firearm for those that simply can not afford something of better quality. Hi-points do what firearms are meant to do... thats go bang every time you pull the trigger. There are lots of poor quality cheap brands, that are not worth even the small price you pay for them.

Instead of bashing the person who can only afford the cheap, lets try to steer them to something that they can afford and will actually serve them well. Plus give them advice and direction if something isn't quite right, or they need help with other issues like training or maintenance.

I am glad that everyone that replied so far seems to agree with that. :)
 
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You don't like the "life worth" argument because of having been poor and you want it to stop. You having been poor isn't a good argument against that which you are complaining.

Sadly, people confuse $ with quality and they believe you get what you paid for as if $=quality on a 1:1 basis of some sort. It isn't, of course, and there is some high dollar junk out there.

If you want to argue what against the "life worth" argument, do it on a basis that just isn't to satisfy yourself that you are defending the poor. Unfortunately, too many cheap guns/weapons are crappy and a gun that doesn't work certainly may not be much better than the $800 Sig in the display case of the gun store.

What people need are guns that function reliable, regardless of cost. If your HiPoint works reliably, then good for you. Don't worry about the arguments if you can't afford a more expensive gun. You don't need to afford one. Your life is worth as much as anybody else's.
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^^^ I agree with that.

You really are turning this into a West Side Story thing. It's not that serious..

Very simple. Black & White...Most guns that are really inexpensive. Are made from cheap material to cut costs along with a poor design and even worse quality control. Again, all to cut costs for an affordable firearm. So yes..they are more likely to not function properly or break easier. That's with anything in life. You do "get what you pay for" in most cases. So yes, if someone posts on a public forum, they seek the opinions of people from all different walks of life. Hence it being a public forum. So if any responses do not make you happy and there are any doubts in your mind about not reading what you want to read (cause everyone has a different opinion, and you asked) then it's kind of a simple fix. Just don't post it. I don't ask questions that I don't want to know the answers to. The same thing.. Anyways, if someone asks me or this forum what I think about him getting either a Hi-Point or saving up a little more for a used Glock or something with better reviews and a longer running time. Yes, I will tell them to ditch the cheap crap if he/she is serious about defending their life with a tool as serious as a firearm and save up for something better. No need to go through a higher chance of a hassle with the extremely low end stuff. That's my opinion. Now on a personal level, if we were having beers and I hurt your feelings or something in front of friends. I'd still tell you to get rid of the idea of buy so darn cheap. However, I would have sympathy. Here though? This is a public forum...I still feel the same way, if you have the guts to ask and share your story with an unlimited amount of people you should have the open mind to the responses.

Don't make it so personal. We're all here for the same reason. No one is belittling anyone.
 
I actually have heard the phrase used in a way that I agree with recently.

That was safety harnesses for tree stands. The instructor stated that some will go to a big box store and get a $15 dollar harness that is supposed to save their life should they fall out of a tree stand and hang suspended.

The reason I can agree with the use here is that when the whole process of hunting is typically filled with other expenses - camo patterns, clothes, guns, scopes, bows, stands, blinds, binoculars, calls, scent blocker, knives - there are so many other areas that can be "good enough" the last place you'd want to cut corners is your safety equipment. But thinking safety is not as fun as the guns and ammo.

Outside of the context of safety vs recreation (moral implications there), a problem with the phrase is that in order for it to come across as intended BOTH have to already see the object as low value. What if you were given your first gun- Hi-Point and 150 rounds of Winchester white box the day you turned 21? that is one rich feeling young man/woman.
 
I think a big part of what makes this topic an ongoing sore spot is a basic disconnect about what constitutes a quality firearm.

I've seen $150 guns that I would use for self-defense and much more expensive guns I wouldn't. I have carried, for self-defense, guns I purchased for as little as $130, but they were always guns that were (at the least) well made, designed to last, built from good materials, they functioned properly and without fail. The fact that I was able to purchase them very inexpensively was not a negative reflection on their quality. Quality can sometimes be had for a surprisingly low price.

Similarly, significant expense does not automatically imply quality. The fact that the purchase price was high doesn't mean that the gun must be a good one.

Even reliable function doesn't equate to quality. An M3 "grease gun", or a Liberator pistol functions as intended but neither of those two firearms could be accurately termed "high quality". They were made to be simple and inexpensive to manufacture using expedient materials and methods while still performing reliably. They were not made to provide a lifetime of service, nor were the materials used generally considered to be quality materials. They provided basic, reliable function and an adequate service life, but that's about all.

If someone were to come to me and ask for a recommendation on a 9mm submachinegun, I wouldn't automatically recommend an M3 simply because it's functional. We might get around to that if the budget constraints demanded it, but it would be foolish for me to pretend that an M3 would be a great choice if a person could afford an MP5. That's NOT because the MP5 is more expensive, it's because the MP5 is a better quality option. It's well made, designed to last, built from good materials, and, it, like the M3 can be expected to function properly and without fail.

The other problem is the implication that it's impossible to find inexpensive quality firearms and therefore people are constrained to certain classes of firearms by their budget. It's always possible that if one has severe budget limitations AND is in a hurry, they might not have the time it takes to shop around for something that is both inexpensive and of good quality, but in general, unless BOTH time and budget constraints are imposed, it's possible to get quality firearms at surprisingly low cost.

The classic example that stands out in my mind was a Dan Wesson .357Mag revolver I saw for sale in a pawn shop. It was marked $150 and I have no doubt that the marked price was negotiable. It was in good working condition but it looked really bad--storing a revolver loose in a toolbox full of tools will apparently do that. Admittedly, that was a one-time deal--I'm not suggesting that it's always possible to find dinged up Dan Wesson revolvers for under $200--but I am saying that if I were constrained to a purchase price in the $150-$200 range I am confident that I could find something on the used market that would meet a reasonable definition of quality.
 
A $1000 Sig is always better than a $500 Glock... But it also seems to often come off as more money spent means better quality person as well.
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Marine, that statement I do not agree with, first I get my Glocks at LE price, G licensed Security. $425 out of the door. Glocks work first time all the time.

As a person who never had a no food in the house situation, or missed a meal, from War torn Liverpool in the 40s, to new immigrant in Australia/Canada/USA. I know how lucky I have been in my 76 years.

For you to have come full circle, and doing well, makes me feel good, you having a good CCW Pistol now, makes me feel better.
 
Quality or not-so quality.. what gets me is some people who carry 3 firearms every single day and are not part of LE.... they say they are prepared.. I think they are in fear of their lives.

Its one thing to carry around a piece..its another to carry a main, a backup, another backup..and then a vest..all to go to the store to get milk. Hopefully some studies will be done to show that it is a disease..some type of phobia.. maybe call it overkilltomanyitus.
 
I would add that I often hear the exact same rhetorical question whenever the astronomical prices of big name "shooting schools" comes up. Much as I'd love to attend training at Thunder Ranch or Gunsite, when you add up the costs of the necessary ammo, travel, and finally the sky-high fees for just the schools themselves...for many of us, it just ain't gonna happen. If the money ain't there, it's just not there.
 
The "whats your life worth" argument was brought back up again...

Its like some people don't understand the term "budget"...
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The term is used a lot for both cheap guns and cheap ammo.

Some people are always looking for a way to turn "budget" ammo into premium HST or Gold Dot. They participate in threads, or even start them, looking for approval with respect to their Walmart WWB JHP, or CCI aluminum case cheap ammo.

For that reason, "what's your life worth?" is an appropriate response, which isn't so much of a question as it is an expression of distaste toward those who would use less than the best ammo available for protection of oneself and one's loved ones.

I understand budget. That's the ammo you buy for practice. NOT FOR CARRY.

For some, the cheap ammo goes with a quality gun, such as SIG or Glock. For others, the gun and ammo are both of "budget" quality. There are cheap guns that work fine, though how well they hold up after lots of rounds is another matter.

Ammo like CorBon DPX, HST, and Gold Dot, are more expensive and also more effective. Unless you use your carry ammo for practice, "budget" isn't really the issue, since you don't need a stockpile of carry ammo. HST is as up there with the best, and is available in 50 rd. boxes, cheaper than most premium ammo, and easily purchased on line.

A "budget gun" for me is something like a Glock or Smith M&P. They both work and are cheaper than SIGS (my preference).

I have a question for you: What's your life worth?:cool:
 
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I understand what you're saying about the haves and have-nots in a small town, but there's another question that might be asked.

What's your lawyer worth?
 
I collect guns, because I like how they look and, obviously, how they shoot. I've cycled several thousand rounds through every gun I've owned.

Expensive guns that are well made for a military application are going to be reliable. You don't often hear about unreliable Sigs or HKs. At the same time you hear about Kel-Tecs jamming and problems with Hi-Points.

You can get reliable Glocks, polymer Sigs, Walthers, etc. for less than 300 bucks used.

It all breaks down to materials, design, and tolerances. There comes a price point where a manufacturer can't be bothered to make a durable and reliable firearm. I haven't found what that is, but I got an SP2022 for less than 400 dollars, used I've seen it for about 250.

250 for a military grade, reliable, reasonably unbreakable, and very accurate 9mm is a pretty strong indictment against cheap guns. You just have to shop around for a good deal.

I wouldn't make it into a social argument against have or have nots. A lot of people who get expensive guns do so with no intent of carrying or using it for personal defense.

...and let's not forget that Remington and Mossberg 12 ga shotguns retail for less than 350 new at every local Wal-Mart and can be had for a lot less used. I can't think of anything more reliable than an 870, the thing is like a hammer or a shovel in terms of complexity.
 
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"It just really gets to me when I see that."

Okay, but don't let it drive up your blood pressure and ruin your health.

The majority of the times I have seen that "life worth" statement used since I got on the internet in the last century, it was directed at people who could afford to spend more, but really did buy a piece of junk and were bragging about it and how they never spent much on anything and how smart they were.

What they were usually doing was trying to pick a fight with somebody by calling anybody who spent more than they did a fool.

I could get along fine with one gun - a 4" Ruger Service Six I bought in the mid-80s. But what fun would that be? I paid my house off in '97 and like spending money.

I saved up some for my retirement. I retired Thursday and now it's time to spend it. :)

John

P.S. - Speaking of growing up poor and knowing about budgets. When I was in grad school in 1973 and doing tree service work, I bought 4 recapped tires for my old Chevy. I couldn't afford them, but the option was buying 4 mismatched used tires at the junk yard. I need a set of 19" tires now for a 2010 Highlander Limited and I'm going to spend nearly a grand and buy the tires I want. Circumstances change, but knowing the 'net, somebody is going to tell me I'm an idiot for spending that much.
 
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