The truth about Iraq
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Ilovemyak47
Moderator
yes but how's the world being made a better place with each person killed (on either side), all it's doing is uniting everyone else against US. The sunni's and shiites are dancing in the streets together, united for the first time (in a looooooong time) in a cause all iraqi's can agree upon. Getting us out. They believe we were responsible for the bombing upon the golden mosque, they believe we're trying to start a civil war amongst them (aren't we? lately i'm not so sure anymore). We've become a sh*t magnet out there, and you think 'staying the course' is a good idea?? then jack murtha's just a pansy then too right?
CobrayCommando
Moderator
No. I have a problem with NOT doing it, and our fighting men dying needlessly because we don't have the balls to deal with our problems.
What problem do you have with assassinating our enemies? I suppose your one of those that would rather duke it out honourably on the street. Screw that, I want to identify and kill the heads of the snake in their beds and in their mosques.
Personally I hope there is a civil war there. Let them concentrate on fighting each other and give us a chance to repair the oil pipelines.
loggerhead
Moderator
A typical response from the "gwb regardless, radical right." If you question or even hint of doubting their infinate wisdom in solving the worlds problems you are immediately branded as a left wing liberal communist.
OK - back on topic...
The situation in Iraq is a mess because we decided to hang around and participate in perpetuating the mistakes of European colonialism.
Invading Iraq and deposing Saddam Hussein was essentially a snap. At that point, we occupied a country with three major, distinct, and generally mutually disagreeable people. We could have let the ethnic/religious groups in Iraq congregate in their respective parts of the country and create their separate destinies... but we didn't. Instead, we demanded that three groups with centuries-old antagonisms had to learn how to play nice with each other within a set of lines arbitrarily drawn on a map.
Why is it that Iraq-as-a-single-country is sacrosanct? For nearly a thousand years, control over what is now Iraq switched back and forth between the groups in the region. Then, the Ottoman Empire conquered and ruled the area for 400 years, until WWI. At the end of WWI, the victorious Europeans somewhat arbitrarily carved up the former Ottoman Empire, with the British getting the area on the map that is now Iraq. Kurdistan was supposed to gain independence, but the British somehow never got around to keeping that promise. The British kept a finger in Iraq until 1958, after which a series of military dictators ruled the country.
So here we are in 2006, trying to honor a century-old blunder in European colonial cartography that arbitrarily drew "national boundaries" around three groups of people who have never wanted to be bound together.
The situation in Iraq is a mess because we decided to hang around and participate in perpetuating the mistakes of European colonialism.
Invading Iraq and deposing Saddam Hussein was essentially a snap. At that point, we occupied a country with three major, distinct, and generally mutually disagreeable people. We could have let the ethnic/religious groups in Iraq congregate in their respective parts of the country and create their separate destinies... but we didn't. Instead, we demanded that three groups with centuries-old antagonisms had to learn how to play nice with each other within a set of lines arbitrarily drawn on a map.
Why is it that Iraq-as-a-single-country is sacrosanct? For nearly a thousand years, control over what is now Iraq switched back and forth between the groups in the region. Then, the Ottoman Empire conquered and ruled the area for 400 years, until WWI. At the end of WWI, the victorious Europeans somewhat arbitrarily carved up the former Ottoman Empire, with the British getting the area on the map that is now Iraq. Kurdistan was supposed to gain independence, but the British somehow never got around to keeping that promise. The British kept a finger in Iraq until 1958, after which a series of military dictators ruled the country.
So here we are in 2006, trying to honor a century-old blunder in European colonial cartography that arbitrarily drew "national boundaries" around three groups of people who have never wanted to be bound together.
Orig posted by Loggerhead
You are correct ,sir! Remembering back to to 911 and to "Shock and Ouch", many good folks some of whom were WWII vets and their families were reluctant and afraid to speak out against this action. Maybe the only thing these buffoons did effectively was to intimidate good American families into shutting up so we could kill anyone that Bush/Cheney/Rove labeled evildoers! Rove is a master at demonizing those who want to express a differing view.
Rove was the guy back in high school who sat toward the front of the class continually dropping his pencil enabling him to check out the view.
:barf:
Most here wouldn't have wanted much to do with him back then....and some not now.
Non-neocons aren't vicious enough to demonize disonnant views in a free society.
The GWBzers spent so much counter productive energy demonizing and painting the Middle East with such a broad brush that now they can't pull off their port deal.
There's another bullet in the foot! OUCH!
Rimrock
You are correct ,sir! Remembering back to to 911 and to "Shock and Ouch", many good folks some of whom were WWII vets and their families were reluctant and afraid to speak out against this action. Maybe the only thing these buffoons did effectively was to intimidate good American families into shutting up so we could kill anyone that Bush/Cheney/Rove labeled evildoers! Rove is a master at demonizing those who want to express a differing view.
Rove was the guy back in high school who sat toward the front of the class continually dropping his pencil enabling him to check out the view.
:barf: Most here wouldn't have wanted much to do with him back then....and some not now.
Non-neocons aren't vicious enough to demonize disonnant views in a free society.
The GWBzers spent so much counter productive energy demonizing and painting the Middle East with such a broad brush that now they can't pull off their port deal.
There's another bullet in the foot! OUCH! Rimrock
DonR101395
New member
+1
Rimrock,
We all understand you hate Bush. Give it a rest. You'll be given a chance to vote in a pacifist of your choosing in two years.
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
yeah rimrock, too much truth in one sitting and some of these people might lie awake at night thinking...couldn't have that. Words are far too dangerous to be left with people like us...we might incourage discussion and debate, and maybe even disagree with some folks who hate being disagreed with. And what kind of country would we be livin in if THAT was ok?
and stop trying to use facts in your posts, nobody likes facts, besides, it only makes us argue what constitues as being a fact (that's not torture, he's not screaming loud enough! that's merely rough housing! why, i'm stipped naked with car batteries hooked up to my nuts all the time, you should be so lucky!)
and stop trying to use facts in your posts, nobody likes facts, besides, it only makes us argue what constitues as being a fact (that's not torture, he's not screaming loud enough! that's merely rough housing! why, i'm stipped naked with car batteries hooked up to my nuts all the time, you should be so lucky!)
yak47, you're sarcasm is wasted on this crowd. There's a core group of die-hard pro-bush fans who will do anything they can to deny that GWB is anything less than perfect.
They will twist facts, sling mud, insult, belittle, and finally put you on an "ignore" list (how that works is a mystery to me. If you want to engage in discussion how can you do that if you're ignoring the opposite side of the debate? Oh wait that's what they're doing now anyway.)
I'm wondering what this core group is gonna do in a few years when GWB is no longer in office. Without him being in power, who are they going to ascend to godhood in his place? Or is Armageddon and the next presidential inauguration one and the same?
They will twist facts, sling mud, insult, belittle, and finally put you on an "ignore" list (how that works is a mystery to me. If you want to engage in discussion how can you do that if you're ignoring the opposite side of the debate? Oh wait that's what they're doing now anyway.)
I'm wondering what this core group is gonna do in a few years when GWB is no longer in office. Without him being in power, who are they going to ascend to godhood in his place? Or is Armageddon and the next presidential inauguration one and the same?
DonR101395
New member
If either of you had posted a fact in this thread this statement might have some validity. Since all you've posted is your opinion on Bush it means nothing except you don't like Bush. Big deal neither does the Middle East, Central Asia, Southwest Asia or California.
I hate Clinton. I'm not afraid to say it. He was the worst thing that ever happened to the defenders of this country. I served under Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and GWB and I can tell you the worst of it was under Clinton. It's documented that he lied under oath, was weak on gathering intel to prevent terrorism, was an adulterer, and too cheap to give his intern $15 to clean her dress. He was missing the first thing a Commander must have, a moral code. I don't mean a perfect person, I mean the ability to do the right thing even if you're criticized for doing it. Do I wish bad things for Bill? Nope, I figure he has Hilary and that is punishment that borders torture.
Sorry to the other for this brief hijacking
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
but bush didn't flat out lie to us and congress, no wait, he was simply 'misinformed', honest mistake. you know what's at the opposite end of the too lax on terrorism spectrum? being so hard up for info that you practically have people make up 'intelligence', is that any better or any less destructive?! I hated clinton too but compared to how uberevil bush has shown himself to be, I really miss the days of clinton screwing around.
what's better, to change one's mind and be right, or to maintain course while wrong? and not to spew 'talking points' (god i hate them) but 'when clinton lied nobody died'...I would love it if bush just came out and told everyone why he was so bloody determined to go in iraq, and not any of this nationbuilding, 'saddam was a threat' crap (20 yrs ago...sheesh). Just the REAL reason why we're there...are the upcoming oil shortages going to be THAT bad that you have to make excuses?
what's better, to change one's mind and be right, or to maintain course while wrong? and not to spew 'talking points' (god i hate them) but 'when clinton lied nobody died'...I would love it if bush just came out and told everyone why he was so bloody determined to go in iraq, and not any of this nationbuilding, 'saddam was a threat' crap (20 yrs ago...sheesh). Just the REAL reason why we're there...are the upcoming oil shortages going to be THAT bad that you have to make excuses?
DonR101395
New member
AK
You're correct, his no action policy killed people.
You're correct, his no action policy killed people.
lizziedog1
New member
Knowledge of social studies, history, and geography is abysmal in this country. I heard that recently they asked one thousand random Americans about which rights are protected by the first ammendment. One out of four could name one. Three could not name any. They also said that half those surveyed could name all members of the cartoon, Simpson family.
Then there are those surveys about geography. Most Americans can not find South Africa on a map of Africa. Most Americans do not know which ocean is on which coast. I am sure that some of you have seen the Leno's ask the man on the street gig. He asks randon, everyday people questions like, who is the vice president? Which war did Lincoln preside over? And similar queries. Most of the people have no idea to the answers.
With this in mnd, is it any wonder that the Iraq situation confuses some people?
Then there are those surveys about geography. Most Americans can not find South Africa on a map of Africa. Most Americans do not know which ocean is on which coast. I am sure that some of you have seen the Leno's ask the man on the street gig. He asks randon, everyday people questions like, who is the vice president? Which war did Lincoln preside over? And similar queries. Most of the people have no idea to the answers.
With this in mnd, is it any wonder that the Iraq situation confuses some people?
ReadyOnTheRight
New member
When has government spending ever created anything?
You can't change the law of physics -- even if you throw all of our tax money at it. Oil is a cheap fuel that drives our entire economy. It will still be cheap until it hits some point at ~$10 a gallon or so when it will become a "designer fuel". At which point entrepreneurs -- NOT THE GOVERNMENT -- will step up and backfill with ethanol, hemp or "Mr. Fusion" machines.
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