The truth about Iraq
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Ilovemyak47
Moderator
that's what is spewed by someone who's ingested too much of the poison...they can't help it really, all they can do is writhe in it and go buy another cheseburger, with faint images of stars and stripes dancing in his head. Shoot em and move on to the next, he's too fargone... 
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
every time someone gets the link to godwin's law, i imagine a ghost of godwin getting to go slap the offending reader at his computer...can't help it.
that'd be freaky considering he's still alive...in fact he's lecturing at yale this very moment Ilovemyak47
Moderator
in that case i feel that he's earned some right to slap them in the afterlife
lizziedog1
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Some here have mentioned oil as part of the problem. Some have mentioned that we need to get more oil out of Alaska. I agree, energy independence would help solve some of the problems we have with the Middle East. However, it seems as though some folks that complain about our situation over there also oppose any domestic exploration and refining of oil.
It is also important to look at issues from an historical perspective. World War Two was a long and difficult war. The death toll of the Middle east pales in comparison to just one battle in WWII. It took years and years after the end of hostilities to stabilize those regions. The United States shouldered the majority of that burden. We still have troops in Germany and Japan.
Japan would have been similar to the Iraqi situation had we chosen to do a standard invasion. We chose to drop a couple of big ones to end it quicker and easier.
One more thing, our fight with Germany was not unanimously supported. Even the British had detractors. Remember how Chamberlin wanted to appease the Nazi's. Remember how Churchill wanted to go at them. Churchill's stance was not popular. Fortunately his thinking prevailed.
Looking at history is an important part of many arguements. You know what happens if you ignore it.
It is also important to look at issues from an historical perspective. World War Two was a long and difficult war. The death toll of the Middle east pales in comparison to just one battle in WWII. It took years and years after the end of hostilities to stabilize those regions. The United States shouldered the majority of that burden. We still have troops in Germany and Japan.
Japan would have been similar to the Iraqi situation had we chosen to do a standard invasion. We chose to drop a couple of big ones to end it quicker and easier.
One more thing, our fight with Germany was not unanimously supported. Even the British had detractors. Remember how Chamberlin wanted to appease the Nazi's. Remember how Churchill wanted to go at them. Churchill's stance was not popular. Fortunately his thinking prevailed.
Looking at history is an important part of many arguements. You know what happens if you ignore it.
invention_45
New member
Regarding the "truth about..." postings:
I've always heard that when the truth is hard to sort out, follow the money.
I've always heard that when the truth is hard to sort out, follow the money.
So we should have just cut and run after that report?
Wow. We're screwd. What has happened to the people in this country?
This country used to be full of people that had the nuts to stand up for what is right no matter what the cost. Instead we find every excuse in the book to not follow through with something because it's difficult. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. I'm the 2nd generation victim of wars that have been fought half way. My Dad's efforts in Vietnam were just as wasted as mine in the Gulf. Let's honor our fighting men and women by following through with what's been started and finish this one for a change.
Might send the message that Americans will actually back up what we say.
By the way those stats are bogus. All of the men and women I have spoke to beleive strongly in what they are doing in Iraq.
Wow. We're screwd. What has happened to the people in this country?
This country used to be full of people that had the nuts to stand up for what is right no matter what the cost. Instead we find every excuse in the book to not follow through with something because it's difficult. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. I'm the 2nd generation victim of wars that have been fought half way. My Dad's efforts in Vietnam were just as wasted as mine in the Gulf. Let's honor our fighting men and women by following through with what's been started and finish this one for a change.
Might send the message that Americans will actually back up what we say.
By the way those stats are bogus. All of the men and women I have spoke to beleive strongly in what they are doing in Iraq.
I stood up for what was right ... I opposed the invasion of Iraq from the beginning. My position has been consistent throughout the course of the current hostilities.
To me, honoring our soldiers means not squandering their lives on wars in which the country should not participate in the first place.
To me, honoring our soldiers means not squandering their lives on wars in which the country should not participate in the first place.
invention_45
New member
I know a better way to honor our fighting men and women.
Make sure the first sent to war are the sons and daughters of the politicians that start them.
Make sure the first sent to war are the sons and daughters of the politicians that start them.
Iraq
Say fellow threaders, I was certainly glad to see that I am not alone in the way I feel about the "WAR" and how it is going. Someone spoke about Religion and the part it is playing in this totally useless process. Don' get me wrong, I believe in fighting for our freedom and as a Veteran of the Viet Nam era I support and have a great deal of respect for our troops. The sad fact is that no matter how long we stay or when we leave the things that are causing the problems now will still be there. The wars between the factions in that Country will continue as they have for hundreds of years in the past. The real shame is that we are loosing men and resources every day and no good is coming of it. Just think of all the good that those efforts and resources could be doing here at home, in New Orleans for instance. Someone talked about other sources for oil and that would certainly be a good idea, but more importantly we need to take the oil tycoons off their thrones. There is no reason that gas needs to be the price it is now, unless you support the lifestyle of the megamillionaires running the oil business.
Keep up the resistance and remember the war every time you go into a voting booth.
A fed up American
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Say fellow threaders, I was certainly glad to see that I am not alone in the way I feel about the "WAR" and how it is going. Someone spoke about Religion and the part it is playing in this totally useless process. Don' get me wrong, I believe in fighting for our freedom and as a Veteran of the Viet Nam era I support and have a great deal of respect for our troops. The sad fact is that no matter how long we stay or when we leave the things that are causing the problems now will still be there. The wars between the factions in that Country will continue as they have for hundreds of years in the past. The real shame is that we are loosing men and resources every day and no good is coming of it. Just think of all the good that those efforts and resources could be doing here at home, in New Orleans for instance. Someone talked about other sources for oil and that would certainly be a good idea, but more importantly we need to take the oil tycoons off their thrones. There is no reason that gas needs to be the price it is now, unless you support the lifestyle of the megamillionaires running the oil business.
Keep up the resistance and remember the war every time you go into a voting booth.
A fed up American
Backstrap
CobrayCommando
Moderator
I would plan to institute a massive no holds barred humint program and find and eliminate 20 key figures at a time until they are all gone. Essentially instituting what the Soviets did to their own people except in Iraq and definately in a more precise way.
And you don't see a moral problem following Soviet counterinsurgency tactics and implementing assassination policies?
Just because one side may stoop to a certain level, doesn't always mean that the other side should follow suit, especially when that other side is us. Something about two wrongs ...
Just because one side may stoop to a certain level, doesn't always mean that the other side should follow suit, especially when that other side is us. Something about two wrongs ...
invention_45
New member
Yes. Team up our crack intelligence with our hardworking, honest politicians and implement that plan.
We could always hope the results would cause all the Sunnis to die from laughing.
We could always hope the results would cause all the Sunnis to die from laughing.
But there really is a war going on, whethor your opposed to it or not. I would think even someone with your point of view could see what a waste it would be to cut and run now. Change strategy? Possibly. Leave now? Never.
invention 45, last I heard our army is made up of men and women who joined of their own free choosing. You join the military first and foremost to fight for your country wherever and whenever that may be. As of 911 we are at war with terror. Saddam supported terrorism and was not adhering to his end of getting his but kicked in the Gulf War. Kicking out UN inspectors is not OK. Basically he told everyone to get bent. What was your plan to fix this problem? The UN was certainly not worth a crap then and still isn't.
Reason with them? You guys could reason us into the ground.
IMO. If there is a problem that is obviously not being resolved with diplomacy our armed forces better darn well get over there and fix it. That is what they do.
invention 45, last I heard our army is made up of men and women who joined of their own free choosing. You join the military first and foremost to fight for your country wherever and whenever that may be. As of 911 we are at war with terror. Saddam supported terrorism and was not adhering to his end of getting his but kicked in the Gulf War. Kicking out UN inspectors is not OK. Basically he told everyone to get bent. What was your plan to fix this problem? The UN was certainly not worth a crap then and still isn't.
Reason with them? You guys could reason us into the ground.
IMO. If there is a problem that is obviously not being resolved with diplomacy our armed forces better darn well get over there and fix it. That is what they do.
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invention_45
New member
I wasn't really having a problem with Saddam. I was having more of a problem with Osama. Remember him? He's a Saudi, not an Iraqi.
The whole mess is smoke and mirrors for oil profits. I stick by what I said. Replace our fighting men and women with politician's kids and oil baron's kids.
If those who start'em had to finish'em, there would be a lot fewer of'em, and they'd be over things important to all of us.
I say get out now, let the chips fall.
The whole mess is smoke and mirrors for oil profits. I stick by what I said. Replace our fighting men and women with politician's kids and oil baron's kids.
If those who start'em had to finish'em, there would be a lot fewer of'em, and they'd be over things important to all of us.
I say get out now, let the chips fall.
Depends on who's definition of "war" you're talking about. Has Congress legally declared war?
Funny 'cause more often than not recruiting ads talk more about training, money for college, job placement, signing bonuses, free time on base, seeing the world, and the pimp health care benefits as opposed to the chance of being sent into combat. I can think of a single, just one single commercial that emphasises joining the military to defend the US (that one where the soldier or Marine - can't remember which - is jogging through his neighborhood glancing at the people he's sacrificing for).
So maybe people are supposed to join the military first and foremost to fight for their country but that is not the reason everyone does it nor is that the angle that the armed forces uses to get most of its' recruits. When I was in high school and the recruiters came to talk with the seniors not a single one would carry on a conversation with me once I brought up the fact that all my friends they were trying to enlist could be sent to die.
You cannot be at "war" with an ideology any more than you can be at "war" with a chemical substance or at "war" with a firearm. If this conflict can legally be defined as a "war" then it was, from the moment troops were sent into Iraq, a war against a soveriegn nation. Regardless of whether or not the invasion was justified (I'm not saying I lean one way or the other) the simple fact is that Iraq was the target, not "terror".
Besides, Mr bin Laden obviously got what he wanted. If there is a "war on terror" he is winning by a long shot.
Garand Illusion
New member
Wow! When did all the guys from moveon.org start posting here?
A lot of good points from both sides above. Unfortunately, history will have the final say on everything. Let's reopen this thread in 10 years and talk about how things turned out.
For me ... I supported GWB when he was rallying the troops. I always knew there was more involved than WMD, and if you read enough you could see that WMD and a possible "911" connection (though not strongly stated and really not there) were just the most publicly stated reasons.
Now that it turned out to be an expensive, bloody, ongoing war ... I feel ticked off that I was led down this path. If I had it to do over again, I'd be a person talking down the war.
But since I don't have it to do over again ... we're there and we have to win. I feel bad that more men keep dying, and I don't have any idea if this war is generating more jihadist than it's killing ... but I do know one thing; Al Quaeda is in Iraq now, and we're killing a lot of them. And every suice bomber who blows up fellow arabs is one less suicide bomber to attack the U.S.
I have also seen polls saying that among the Arab mainstream, who are now watching fellow muslims shredded by suicide bombers and terrorists and seeing weeping Arab women, the majority now don't see terror bombings as legitimate warfare. I don't have the citing for that, but I saw it on television.
If the above is true, and Iraq can be the killing zone where we kill as many al quaeda and suicide bombers as possible while sapping the will of the Arab people to keep sending their sons off to hopeless war, then it will have been worth the money and blood.
But I have my doubts it will turn out like that. I can only hope and pray.
If anyone reading this is headed for Iraq or in country, God bless. I'm sorry you're going, but you have to know that the US is going to do everything possible to make yoru sacrifice something that makes the world a better place.
A lot of good points from both sides above. Unfortunately, history will have the final say on everything. Let's reopen this thread in 10 years and talk about how things turned out.
For me ... I supported GWB when he was rallying the troops. I always knew there was more involved than WMD, and if you read enough you could see that WMD and a possible "911" connection (though not strongly stated and really not there) were just the most publicly stated reasons.
Now that it turned out to be an expensive, bloody, ongoing war ... I feel ticked off that I was led down this path. If I had it to do over again, I'd be a person talking down the war.
But since I don't have it to do over again ... we're there and we have to win. I feel bad that more men keep dying, and I don't have any idea if this war is generating more jihadist than it's killing ... but I do know one thing; Al Quaeda is in Iraq now, and we're killing a lot of them. And every suice bomber who blows up fellow arabs is one less suicide bomber to attack the U.S.
I have also seen polls saying that among the Arab mainstream, who are now watching fellow muslims shredded by suicide bombers and terrorists and seeing weeping Arab women, the majority now don't see terror bombings as legitimate warfare. I don't have the citing for that, but I saw it on television.
If the above is true, and Iraq can be the killing zone where we kill as many al quaeda and suicide bombers as possible while sapping the will of the Arab people to keep sending their sons off to hopeless war, then it will have been worth the money and blood.
But I have my doubts it will turn out like that. I can only hope and pray.
If anyone reading this is headed for Iraq or in country, God bless. I'm sorry you're going, but you have to know that the US is going to do everything possible to make yoru sacrifice something that makes the world a better place.
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