The Perfect Fighting Revolver

[45_auto]

I can think of many...

Really? Any documentation that you can reference?

Browning Hi Power

Page 25, Browning Hi-Power manual:

FIXED SIGHTS
Some Hi Power pistols are equipped with a fixed front sight blade and
a drift adjustable rear sight. No adjustment of the front sight is
necessary. Rear sight adjustment is a process of trial and error.

http://www.browning.com/content/dam...rs-manuals/2016/12-BFA-323_HiPower OM_WEB.pdf

HK P7

Page 8, HK P7 manual:

The rear sight can be adjusted for windage by loosening the set screw, moving the sight to the right or left, depending on the desired shot placement, and tightening the set screw.

http://hkp7.com/PDF/p7-manual.pdf

Kahr K9

Kahr K9 manual, page 15:

Both the front and rear sights are held in place
by the tight fit of the sight to the dovetail. On
the CT, CW and CM Series the polymer front
sight is pinned into the slide and cannot be
moved. Windage (side to side) adjustments are
made by pressing the rear sight in the direction
that you want the bullet placement to move.

https://www.kahr.com/pdf/kahrmanual.pdf

S&W 4506

S&W 4506 manual, page 25:

Certain model S&W pistols are equipped with a Fixed Rear Sight that is adjustable for windage only. To adjust, move the rear sight in the direction you wish the group to move on the target.

https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/si...rs-manuals/S&W_Metal_Frame_Autos_10-01-15.pdf

A huge number of M1911 variants.

Name the 1911, I'll send you a link to the manual that will tell you how to adjust the drift adjustable rear sights.

Sig P220

Sig 220 manual, page 47:

The SIG SAUER pistol is equipped with drift adjustable fixed sights which have proven their worth under severe conditions....Change windage by moving the rear sight either to the left or right in its dovetail.

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Classic_Line.pdf

A gazillion different model Glocks

Name the Glock, I'll send you a gazillion links to the manual that will tell you how to adjust the drift adjustable rear sights.

The list goes on and on and on.

Care to try again? Until you get down to the pocket pistol category with the rear sight groove machined into the slide, every serious combat (military/police issue) semi-auto will have drift-adjustable rear sights.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Really? Any documentation that you can reference?"

Hum... I think we're working from differing opinions on what constitutes adjustable sights.

In the context of this discussion it was apparent to me, and remains apparent to me, that adjustable meant sights that can be adjusted both for windage AND elevation in the same context as revolvers such as the Model 19.

Given that few full-size semi-automatics have ever been manufactured with forged-in-frame non-adjustable sights, the discussion of windage only sights is really moot and inconsequential.

One could just as logically say that ALL revolver sights, even those that are forged in frame, are adjustable as long as you have a file and a TIG welder.

 

[tulsamal]

OK, point made.

IMO... and it is only my opinion... if I knew for a fact that I was going to be in a fight for my life in the next few minutes and my only choice was "what revolver?" I can't think of a better choice than the S&W M58. A police style rugged beast in .41 Magnum. I would want it loaded up with a medium power expanding bullet not full power hunting rounds. That big hoss would feel mighty comforting... kind of like my 5.5" Ruger Redhawk in .41 Magnum.

Gregg

 

[Mike Irwin]

I'd also be comfortable picking my Model 58.

But, if I were to go with the larger N frame over the K frame, I'd go with my 4" Model 28 and full-bore .357 Magnum loads like the 125-gr. Remington Golden Saber.

Larger, heavier N frame will soak up a lot of the recoil generated by the .357 Magnum cartridge. It will still be pretty stout, but not as stout, and more controllable, than in a Model 19.


That said, I have a pretty decent 210-gr. lead load for my Model 58 using WW 231 powder. Gives me about 1000 fps, IIRC.

Does GREAT on bowling pins. I suspect that it would be a good defensive load using an FBI HP-type bullet, as well.

 

[Real Gun]

Any dovetail sight I had would require a gunsmith to change the windage. To me, unless it offers a screwdriver slot, windage-only or elevation as well, it's not "adjustable", although not necessarily fixed. There is a middle ground of not cast-in-frame. I have one gun that has windage only and offers a screw adjustment. That is all I need and, since it is better than fixed sights, is adjustable to me.

 

[Danoobie]

Sooo, Real Gun, help me out, here, because I'm a bit slow. You want a
gun which isn't a concealed carry gun, because they aren't effective as
a "fighting revolver". But you know in advance you are going to be in a
gunfight,in which case, I would assume you are bringing a rifle, considering
you have knowledge of this gun fight, beforehand.

SO, you must conceal your rather mid-sized side-arm. In order to transport
it to this gun fight.

Tell me, where and when do these "gun fights" occur, and what do you do,
in order to conceal your rifle, in order to get it there?

 

[Mike Irwin]

What?

You don't carry a delrin rod and a smackhammer with you everywhere you go?

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Tell me, where and when do these "gun fights" occur,"

Over there, of course!

"and what do you do, in order to conceal your rifle, in order to get it there?"

I don't know about him, but I take the bus.


True story...

My former Father in Law, who was on active duty in the AF in the 1950s, was in Manhattan and bought himself a Winchester Model 12 at one of the surplus shops that sold long guns before NYC went all prohibitiony.

Only, he didn't buy a case to go with it, so he took the NYC subway to get to Grand Central Station to get to the Long Island Railroad to get home.

The only person who batted an eye the entire trip was the LIRR conductor, who made a pointed comment about stupid Air Force guy not knowing enough to put his gun in a case to protect the finish....

 

[Real Gun]

What?

You don't carry a delrin rod and a smackhammer with you everywhere you go?

I could, actually. I already have a bag of gear that goes to every range trip. It includes a tack hammer and squib rods, no Delrin. I am still not messing with the sights without a discussion with my gunsmith. I generally don't bubba my guns.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I have adjusted many windage-only sights on semi-autos over the years. I don't need a gunsmith to be able to tell me how to do that.

There was only one that defeated me, and that one gave my gunsmith a lot of trouble, too, as the sight was rusted in place.

 

[Real Gun]

I'm just not a real man, I guess. The thing about my gunsmith is that he is such a good shot that he can determine how to set the sight with only a few cartridges. Personally, I can only say generally where the groups tend to center, after many shots.

Funny, I just received a note about this in email.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I'm just not a real man"

Oh please, I am not questioning your manhood, and I apologize if it appeared I was doing so, as this has nothing to do with presence or absence of theoretical dangly bits...

If you're not comfortable adjusting your own sights, that's perfectly fine. More than one person has gotten in way over his head over the years by being comfortable with the concept of doing something, but not understanding the mechanics of it, how it should be done, etc. Trust me, I speak from experience on that point.

People who think they know all there is about working on an S&W revolver and start by prying the sideplate off with a screwdriver are a prime example. Fortunately I'm not guilty of that particular fox paw.

 

[45_auto]

Sounds like we were talking at cross-purposes, Mike!

One could just as logically say that ALL revolver sights, even those that are forged in frame, are adjustable as long as you have a file and a TIG welder.

I'd like to see the owner's manual that instructs them on how to do that!

The thing about my gunsmith is that he is such a good shot that he can determine how to set the sight with only a few cartridges.

He can determine how to set the sights for HIS stance, grip, sight picture, etc, in a few shots.

Chances are that if it's truly zeroed for him then it's not for you.

My experience has been that the vast majority of handgun shooters are not good enough to worry about adjusting the sights anyway. Half a dozen 6" diameter plates at 25 yards with unlimited time seems to be an almost insurmountable challenge for most.

 

[RickB]

I'd use my revolver to fight my way to my 1911.

 

[SaxonPig]

Some points that have been raised.

"Fighting revolver." To me this would be any revolver carried in harm's way.

"Ideal" is highly subjective and based on individual needs and preferences.

I would tend to agree the best choice would have fixed sights. No doubt adjustable would be more accurate but with a combat arm you make compromises in the interest of reliability and durability. Adjustable sights add to the bulk and complexity of what should be streamlined and simple to work best. Just my opinion.

I don't know what I consider "ideal." Not even sure which of my revolvers would come closest to that standard.

Off the top of my head I think a medium frame DA only model with no hammer spur, fixed sights, and a 4" barrel. Heavy barrel would be best on all counts except weight. Have to choose priorities. I would think the biggest caliber the shooter could handle in rapid DA mode effectively. I know that for me that removes the 357 Magnum from contention because recoil prevents me from shooting accurate and fast DA strings.

 

[SIGSHR]

If you have a fixed sight revolver properly zeroed for you and you can ensure a steady supply of the ammunition it prefers, then that is ideal. I recall Skeeer Skelton wrote that all fixed sighted revolvers shot about an inch left for him.
Charlie Askins said he made a tool to adjust windage on the Border Patrol's Colt New Services though I don't recall him giving any specifics.
I have both the Dan Wesson M-12 and M-15, they will do in a pinch.

 

[mk70ss]

While you all keep on about what actually constitutes an adjustable sight....my 4 inch Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt sits securely in my nightstand ready for anything that ain't welcome on my ranch. Of course I will only need it for a few seconds until I reach the 12 gauge pump shotgun with nightsights and extended mag tube loaded with 00 buck.............

 

[Real Gun]

He can determine how to set the sights for HIS stance, grip, sight picture, etc, in a few shots.

Chances are that if it's truly zeroed for him then it's not for you.

My experience has been that the vast majority of handgun shooters are not good enough to worry about adjusting the sights anyway. Half a dozen 6" diameter plates at 25 yards with unlimited time seems to be an almost insurmountable challenge for most.

I accept your point and did already consider that. I just tell him where it is grouping for me and we figure it out...maybe a little trial and error. I am a pretty fair shot, thank you.

 

[RoughDivider]

To break the big discusssions, I'd take a S&W M&P R8, kinda dig the black finish, and I happen to think 5" barrels look the best.

 

[SaxonPig]

I realize that my gut reaction was correct. I don't own the perfect fighting revolver. Closest I come is this Model 10-7 with a 4" barrel. Swap the ivories for some checkered walnut and remove the hammer spur and it would do. If I could use my 38 Special carry load of a 125 JHP at 1150 FPS I would feel confident in its stopping power.

Pretty simple, huh? Maybe S&W knew what they were doing when they designed the 4" Model 10. Maybe all those tens of thousands of cops who packed one back in the day knew what they were doing, too.