The Judge
- Thread starter leolb1
- Start date
TruthTellers
New member
You know, a lot of people say a lot about 000 buck not penetrating deep enough from a handgun, but again, it comes down to are you saying that about the Federal .410 handgun load with 4 pellets of copper plated buck or the other .410 with 3 pellets of lead pellets not meant for handguns?
Even if EVERY .410 000 buck load failed to penetrate 12 inches, that doesn't mean that it's incapable of STOPPING a threat from hurting you.
The point is to stop. If one, two, three, or more shots of .410 buckshot from a handgun doesn't do it, nothing will. You can't bank on a CNS hit with every shot fired.
Even if EVERY .410 000 buck load failed to penetrate 12 inches, that doesn't mean that it's incapable of STOPPING a threat from hurting you.
The point is to stop. If one, two, three, or more shots of .410 buckshot from a handgun doesn't do it, nothing will. You can't bank on a CNS hit with every shot fired.
Very interesting videos taking into consideration ammo designed specifically for the Judge vs. regular shotgun ammo. In that context, it does seem like a reasonably effective defensive handgun...the only drawback as I see it though is the quality of the firearm. I am still not a fan of Taurus quality, and I think there are a lot of improvements that could be made in that area.
Only staff get away with being disrespectful. I think it is fine to be critical of a gun. I think it is fine to have an opinion about proper application of a type of gun or cartridge. I don't think it is okay to be disrespectful of the decision to own one.
I don't think much of relying on pocket guns, but I am not going to be obnoxious about it.
Cheapshooter
New member
Where I can see that as an issue for some I can't from my own experience with Taurus agree. My PD Poly has had no issues other an ammo related problem with off the shelf 410 shotgun ammo from Winchester. Nothing I have tried for SD has given me any problems.Even the smaller "snake shot" from Remington, Winchester, and Federal has been fine. One batch of SuperX #6 might have been the problem.
I still contend that had S&W came out with the Governor before Taurus introduced the Judge it would have been praised by many of the same critics as one of the greatest close range SD weapons in modern history. Taurus hate trumps all objective thinking.
Cheapshooter stop with this silliness and humble yourself to seek guidance from those that are qualified. I think things will be easier once you realize that Taurus junk will most likely blow up in your hand and if it does'nt those .410 shells will be lucky to punch through paper....
. Another perk to getting rid of that Judge is that you will finally be unshackled to learn how to actually become a competent shooter...
. Another perk to getting rid of that Judge is that you will finally be unshackled to learn how to actually become a competent shooter...Cheapshooter
New member
Now THAT'S funny right there!
Hickok45 had a good review on his U-tube presentation. That said, a friend brought over his Judge a cpl years ago (an early one?) that didn't perform anywhere near what Hickok45's did.
I suspect the tailored ammunition now available for short handgun barrels has a lot to do with it. At the time, #4 buck shot merely dented our poplar fence rails from 7 yds, with a 1 foot wide pattern, and the .45 LC Cowboy commercial loads we tried from the same distance, keyholed, albeit with a 4" group. YMMV, but watch Hickok's video, the larger buckshot did well though hitting very high as did the .45 LC loads. Rod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0
I suspect the tailored ammunition now available for short handgun barrels has a lot to do with it. At the time, #4 buck shot merely dented our poplar fence rails from 7 yds, with a 1 foot wide pattern, and the .45 LC Cowboy commercial loads we tried from the same distance, keyholed, albeit with a 4" group. YMMV, but watch Hickok's video, the larger buckshot did well though hitting very high as did the .45 LC loads. Rod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0
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TruthTellers
New member
I agree. For every 2 people that have not had an issue with a Taurus, there's at least 1 that has. I've heard from enough different sources that when Taurus Customer Service is contacted, it's not a pleasant or successful experience.Old Stony said:
Personally, I would not buy a new Taurus handgun and would rather buy a used one from a friend or co-worker who has had one for a long time and proven it to be reliable.
Because of that, I bought a .410 derringer that will not win any awards in a beauty contest, but it shoots .410 and I do expect it to throw a pattern of buckshot out to 10 yards with good effect and to hold up over the few times I shoot it.
I think the S&W Governor is a well made, but expensive piece that's a bit too light for the .410 buckshoot. If Ruger would make a .410 revolver, I'd buy that thing up real fast, but they don't seem interested in doing that.
turkeestalker
New member
My good friend's son was looking to buy his first hand gun, and was fixated on buying a Judge. Neither of us quite understood why, but it was what he wanted and his own money.
On a Saturday gun store crawl with his father, he wound up purchasing a Governor instead. Not sure if it was actually new old stock or used, but in the box with all the paper work and the shell casing envelope is dated 2014.
The $900.00 price tag would have had me running back to the Judge for something that I've always viewed as a gimmick more than anything else.
But that was my personal opinion, nothing more.
First trip to the range we shot clays to start, and just had to try it with his new toy. Clays with a hand gun, sounded challenging and way fun.
I brought along a box of #6 shells to try out his new toy, fired only six rounds and never touched a bird. Between his father, my oldest, and he himself, they fired the rest of that box of mine and a box of buckshot that he had brought and none of them touched a bird. Seemed the pattern just spread too wide too soon to catch up with a bird from an auto thrower, I don't know.
Moved to the pistol range.
It is hard to say because the boy is really still learning to shoot hand guns. His father doesn't have many, and though he has fired a number of mine at different times, he's still pretty new to them and his range time has been limited.
That said, the Governor's performance did not seem all that stellar with .45 Colt or .45 ACP, though I did not fire it myself with either.
I would have, but did not get the chance before he was standing at my bench holding the cylinder and crane in one hand, and the frame in his other asking me how to put it back together.
The crane retention screw had worked its way out without him noticing and the cylinder hit the concrete upon opening it.
Scars from the fall on it, scars on the frame from him trying to put it back in himself.
As bad as I felt for not having been paying closer attention to what was going on, it didn't begin to compare to how he felt after having paid $900.00 of his own money on the gun.
We found the screw, he returned the gun to the shop where he bought it, and it has been back at S&W for about three weeks with no word as of yet.
The platform is interesting and it may be suited for some purpose like those listed in this thread, but I doubt that it would be well suited for them compared to other options.
I also don't think that changes whether it is a Taurus Judge or Smith & Wesson Governor.
That however is just my opinion based on very limited experience.
On a Saturday gun store crawl with his father, he wound up purchasing a Governor instead. Not sure if it was actually new old stock or used, but in the box with all the paper work and the shell casing envelope is dated 2014.
The $900.00 price tag would have had me running back to the Judge for something that I've always viewed as a gimmick more than anything else.
But that was my personal opinion, nothing more.
First trip to the range we shot clays to start, and just had to try it with his new toy. Clays with a hand gun, sounded challenging and way fun.
I brought along a box of #6 shells to try out his new toy, fired only six rounds and never touched a bird. Between his father, my oldest, and he himself, they fired the rest of that box of mine and a box of buckshot that he had brought and none of them touched a bird. Seemed the pattern just spread too wide too soon to catch up with a bird from an auto thrower, I don't know.
Moved to the pistol range.
It is hard to say because the boy is really still learning to shoot hand guns. His father doesn't have many, and though he has fired a number of mine at different times, he's still pretty new to them and his range time has been limited.
That said, the Governor's performance did not seem all that stellar with .45 Colt or .45 ACP, though I did not fire it myself with either.
I would have, but did not get the chance before he was standing at my bench holding the cylinder and crane in one hand, and the frame in his other asking me how to put it back together.
The crane retention screw had worked its way out without him noticing and the cylinder hit the concrete upon opening it.
Scars from the fall on it, scars on the frame from him trying to put it back in himself.
As bad as I felt for not having been paying closer attention to what was going on, it didn't begin to compare to how he felt after having paid $900.00 of his own money on the gun.
We found the screw, he returned the gun to the shop where he bought it, and it has been back at S&W for about three weeks with no word as of yet.
The platform is interesting and it may be suited for some purpose like those listed in this thread, but I doubt that it would be well suited for them compared to other options.
I also don't think that changes whether it is a Taurus Judge or Smith & Wesson Governor.
That however is just my opinion based on very limited experience.
turkeestalker
New member
I should add that he only shot it at 7 yards on the pistol range and it was all over and off of an 8" shoot-n-see target with both rounds.
Also, it seemed to me that the threaded barrel of the crane retention screw had half sheered off leaving half inside the frame. The portion still attached to the screw head did have a small dot of the red lock-tite on it or some similar substance.
Also, it seemed to me that the threaded barrel of the crane retention screw had half sheered off leaving half inside the frame. The portion still attached to the screw head did have a small dot of the red lock-tite on it or some similar substance.
turkeestalker
New member
I know right?
Poor kid bought his first shotgun of his own a couple months back.
He chose a 'tacticool' Winchester SXP with the collapsible stock and breeching barrel end and all.
The, I am assuming soldered on, front sight literally fell off before he got to the range with it.
His father used epoxy to reattach it, and it fell off almost immediately when he tried to use it on some clays his first outing with us using it.
The kid has had some rotten luck for his first two purchases of his own.
Poor kid bought his first shotgun of his own a couple months back.
He chose a 'tacticool' Winchester SXP with the collapsible stock and breeching barrel end and all.
The, I am assuming soldered on, front sight literally fell off before he got to the range with it.
His father used epoxy to reattach it, and it fell off almost immediately when he tried to use it on some clays his first outing with us using it.
The kid has had some rotten luck for his first two purchases of his own.
I don't read any of that as a true test of a Judge shooting shot shells, more of a strawman. It is not a skeet gun. Shooting results at 7 yards could be nothing more than poor trigger control, hardly a true test of accuracy from a fledgling shooter. I shot yesterday and had my own issues at 50 feet with guns that did not have the best single action. It is always a challenge not to anticipate recoil and jump on the trigger.
random guy
New member
I've never seen a Judge outside of a gunshop, much less fired one. It seems as though there are a lot of misconceptions about its capabilities but there are ways that it can be useful.
As a snake/close range varmint gun, it is passable but would be better with a slow twist barrel. 1 in 12" is actually pretty fast and I don't see much justification. You aren't going to turn it into a really good .45 Colt so why ruin its shot pattern?
In "close in" self-defense mode, .45 Colt rounds would be somewhat effective even at their reduced velocity but the Judge's real forte would be with large diameter balls. These don't seem to scatter as badly as smaller buck and birdshot. 3 or 4 of them in the torso with each trigger pull must have some effect.
Not something that I have to have but I certainly wouldn't feel nekkid with it in my hand.
It would be interesting to create one of these for .45/70 cases loaded with multiple projectiles of full bore diameter. If it had a .458 bore and could fire Trapdoor rounds as well that would simplify the ammo situation (and appeal to somebody I'm sure) but would lead to people blowing the gun up with hot loads. Maybe better to create a completely new multi-bullet round.
As a snake/close range varmint gun, it is passable but would be better with a slow twist barrel. 1 in 12" is actually pretty fast and I don't see much justification. You aren't going to turn it into a really good .45 Colt so why ruin its shot pattern?
In "close in" self-defense mode, .45 Colt rounds would be somewhat effective even at their reduced velocity but the Judge's real forte would be with large diameter balls. These don't seem to scatter as badly as smaller buck and birdshot. 3 or 4 of them in the torso with each trigger pull must have some effect.
Not something that I have to have but I certainly wouldn't feel nekkid with it in my hand.
It would be interesting to create one of these for .45/70 cases loaded with multiple projectiles of full bore diameter. If it had a .458 bore and could fire Trapdoor rounds as well that would simplify the ammo situation (and appeal to somebody I'm sure) but would lead to people blowing the gun up with hot loads. Maybe better to create a completely new multi-bullet round.
Cheapshooter
New member
As a means to dispatch a venomous snake when absolutely necessary, and at such a distance as would offer no option to let it move on, the pattern with #7 1/2 shot out of the 2 1/2" barrel of my PD Poly is completely dense enough. 10' or less, otherwise if not in a yard, or place where it might be a threat to children, it can slither on it's own way.
Maybe the faster twist of your theory has creedence with a longer tube, but it has not proven to be the case with a 2 1/2" barrel.
As for accuracy with 45 Colt, my short barreled Judge does as good as I can, and as good as any other snubbie I have shot. Actually, better than some with holding a 2 1/2-3", 5 shot group, off hand @ 10 yards. Perfect center mass hits as well.
With Federal Handgun 410 000 buckshot loads the "pattern" @ 10 yards looks very similar to the "group" shot with 45 Colt.
Now, to my thinking why my PD Poly is kept alongside the seat of my truck as car jacker defense. The first three rounds up are the Federal 000 buck. Ballistic gel tests have shown this round drives four .355 diameter projectiles to, and past the 12" FBI standard. With one pull of the trigger that is four chances of hitting the spine resulting in an instant stop. Two more rounds tor a total of 12 9MM/380 holes.
One interesting test I would like to see, but haven't found would be pattern with 000 buck at very close range. I'll just have to do that one my self, easy enough next range trip. Thinking car jacker at my door distance of two or three feet. My thinking is that the shot will stay very close together at that distance. Say an inch, maybe a bit more, or less. That would be one massive wound, and I don't care how high, or pumped up an assailant is, that's going to stop him!
Now, for the final two rounds. Backup in case there is another threat at a longer distance.
The PD Poly is not my EDC, nor what I consider my main SD handgun. Just a specific firearm for a specific purpose in SD that doubles as snake insurance in the berry patch. With the bonus of being lots of fun to blow stuff up with!
But that's just me. An inexperienced 70 year old that has shot almost his entire life. But has never written a book, hosted a TV show, or trained Mall Ninjas.
random guy
New member
Yeah, about what I had gathered from reviews and Hickok45. But it could be so much better if the fast twist barrel did not fling the pattern open. It really should have more than 10' of usable range. 44 mags work great with 1/20" twist and even 1/38". I don't see why the Judge would not do the same.
You seem to recognize the Judge's limitations though and exploit its strengths. That's why it works for you.
Cosmodragoon
New member
It's not just that it's a handgun. For comparison purposes, how often do you shoot clays with a .410? That can increase the challenge from full-length shotguns.
Sorry to hear that S&W biffed it here. I hear that from people more than I'd expect.
As per philosophy of use, I think these would be fun for plinking, blasting jugs, etc. They could certainly be used for pest control. They could be stellar in some self-defense situations too. I think people look at them the wrong way. Forget the .45 Colt. Load them up with heavy buck. At close range, the results of one trigger pull should be in the same ball-park as the fastest three or four shot burst possible in a .32acp pocket gun. It's a different concept than the traditional single-projectile pistol, which is a far better option for single projectiles like .45 acp or .45 Colt.