The Judge

There are other things I don't like about their lockwork, but as I warn people, Pay now (for superior produced firearms) or pay later (down time and repair costs). I'd buy 'merican
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The thing is, Gary, that at the height of the Judge's fame and fortune, they were commanding a price point above more effective personal defense guns' prices ...... so those folks paid then, and if they actually use the guns with any frequency, they might well pay again to have them serviced by Taurus' Ppoor customer service........ at least once ..... and if they try to sell them, they'll pay yet again...... "'Merican" or not, there were, and still are, better choices...... hell, there's commie surplus guns out there that cost less, give more shots with more energy on target, and come in a smaller lighter package........ and even their goofy oddball ammo costs less than the PDXwhatever ammo ......
 
bedbugbilly said:
The second thing I think of is that it is so popular with many because they are looking for a SD gun . . . but don't want to take the time to practice and be efficient with a standard handgun. Too many people get handguns and CCW licenses and then never take the time to practice on a regular basis to keep familiar with the handgun and how to shoot it accurately. The same goes for those who buy a home defense gun, maybe shoot it a few times and then tuck it in their nightstand drawer never to practice with it again.
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Why are you so focused on the Judge as a CCW gun? I think any .410 handgun is a bad choice for CCW'ing for the reason you listed, but for home defense, I think the Judge is a great choice. For in the home distances, most anyone who shoots even a few times a year will be able to hit a man size target under 5 yards away.

Anything under 12 yards is the Judge's specialty.
 
For another view by Tom Givens pointing out the deficiencies of the gun, go to http://proarmspodcast.com/ and look for #60.
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Everything he says in this seven year old Interview is the same cliches debunked in many other tests. Sounds like he had an outcome in mind that he designed his test to reach. My own personal experience with my Public Defender Poly having a short 2" barrel has proven 45 Colt is as accurate as any other revolver I own out to a range that is practical to believe necessary for SD. Same thing with Federal Handgun specific 000 buckshot. The pattern at 30 feet, not the fifteen of his claims is more similar to a "group" shot from a reasonably accurate revolver. Certainly not spreading out to hit "everybody". More like hitting an assailant four times at once with a 380, and 12 times with three pulls of the trigger. As mentioned by many, birdshot patterns, even from my 2" barrel, are certainly snake dispatching density at berry patch or wood pile surprise encounter distances.
 
I would equate use of the Judge to many of the same defensive applications for a 12 gauge shotgun. At some point, bashing the Judge is disrespecting the 12 guage.

One should appreciate how potent a .410 can be and how practical it might be for close encounters. I wouldn't bother with slugs, since I can elect to use 45 Colt instead, practical enough at close range. I use shot small enough to pattern at 30 feet. #4 buck seems about right.
 
If you don't know who Tom is - you are way behind the curve on those with real expertise.
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Everyone has an opinion, just like everyone has rectal orifices. You know what they say about them both. For every ex-cop/marine, now small arms trainer, that dislikes the Judge, odds are there is one that likes them. Consider Paul Markel(you probably know him also), his credentials are just as imprssive as Tom's. Here's his review....http://gunsgunsguns.net/taurus-4510tkr/

...and his Bio....http://www.ammoland.com/author/paul-markel/#axzz4cFIT7D9t

The most important sentence of the whole review......and is true for any firearm use for SD/HD.

The key to using the Judge effectively is knowledge and training. Load it with the right ammunition for the task you hope to accomplish.
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Love it or hate it, it doesn't matter. I myself don't own one, nor do I ever intend to, but I still respect the choice of others to. Seems on these type of gun forums, Folks tend to want to show some form of superiority over others by dissing their choice/choices of firearms, generally by claiming the firearm is foolish, impractical or "a answer looking for a question". Thing is, it is someone else's choice and choice is, and should be a personal thing. While I have friends with spouse's that don't match my idea as the "perfect" mate, should I criticize them openly on a social forum on their foolishness? Folks need to get over themselves. No one knows what is best for someone else they have never met, have no idea what scenarios they encounter or how much expertise they have in handling firearms. Assuming that everyone buys a Judge because they know nothing about guns and are too lazy to practice is more foolishness than any gun purchase. If we want folks to respect us and our choices, we need to do the same towards them.
 
At some point, bashing the Judge is disrespecting the 12 guage.
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About as much as bashing a wiffle bat is disrespecting a Louisville Slugger.....

One should appreciate how potent a .410 can be and how practical it might be for close encounters.
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It'd be better than harsh words, as it's a gun, but there are better answers to the problem, in smaller packages, at lower price points, and from more reputable companies.
 
I do not hate Taurus.
One of my favorite I carry is my rare 450Ti in 45 colt. A beautiful titanium ported snubbie. It was dropped because it was too expensive to produce. As with any light weight big caliber revolver the ammo must be well crimped or it well pull say cowboy loads.
If you every come across one buy it. Any caliber you can find.

Peace
 
As far as criticizing choices - choosing and using an instrument of lethal force is a rather important decision. Expressing reasoned opinions about a bad choice is part and parcel of discussion.

I would prefer telling someone that their choice is not optimal and/or dangerous. If they can't take that and want to wallow in the conviction that they are correct, that is their personal problem.

Of course, we should be polite but telling them that they are uninformed and making a bad decision is a reason for discussion. I'm not to say - OK, if you want to use XYZ, three cheers for you.

Learn how to use a SW Model 10 or Glock 19 (or similar) for home defense and cut the crap of thinking some magic gimmick will substitute for competence.
 
I would prefer telling someone that their choice is not optimal and/or dangerous. If they can't take that and want to wallow in the conviction that they are correct, that is their personal problem.
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If, for example, my not agreeing with you equates to self wallowing and a personal problem......yeh, I'm good with that.

Learn how to use a SW Model 10 or Glock 19 (or similar) for home defense and cut the crap of thinking some magic gimmick will substitute for competence.
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Your arrogance is turning into a bit much, because someone has something "gimmicky" in your opinion for home defense does not necassarily mean they are replacing competence with that gimmick.
 
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If my not agreeing with poor choices offends someone, then they can be offended. It is that simple. The Judge is not an optimal weapon and is a gimmick for home defence to avoid obtaining competence.
 
Not offended by that at all, I would imagine that there countless others on this forum alone that agree a Judge is a poor choice for any kind of defense.
It is the manner in which you do it that has me shaking my head.
If someone doesn't agree with you they have a personal problem wallowing in their conviction? If they use a particular firearm they are compensating for their lack of competency? And at the same time talk about being polite in addressing their poor decision, which might very well not be a poor decision just one you disagree with.
 
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I would prefer telling someone that their choice is not optimal and/or dangerous. If they can't take that and want to wallow in the conviction that they are correct, that is their personal problem.
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Similar to how you are now wallowing in the conviction you are correct?

Learn how to use a SW Model 10 or Glock 19 (or similar) for home defense and cut the crap of thinking some magic gimmick will substitute for competence.
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Again, for my personal SD scenarios, I have, I believe, better options than a Judge or a Governor. If I lived in a big city, had a daily commute thru areas of high crime, a Judge or Governor would certainly be a major consideration. While their heft and size do not make for a carry weapon, it makes for a easy to grab gun from the console or under the seat and some of the platform specific ammo made for them would work great at thru the open car door/window in a car jacking/road rage scenario. Same goes for those home invasion scenarios in a small apartment where the maximum distance is never more than ten feet. Still, one needs to practice and be proficient. You continue to claim that the only reason folks buy a Judge/Governor is because they are not familiar with and not proficient with any type of firearm, basically too ignorant to know better and they need to listen to you to tell them what they really need. That's a pretty deep wallow. What works for you might not be the best for me, regardless of how much wallowing either of us does. While I don't own a Judge, I have a coupla friends that do. One has MS and has gotten to the point where he cannot hold and aim a regular firearm very well anymore. Thus he feels more confident with his Judge and multiple projectiles for his nightstand gun. The other one has it just for ships and giggles at the range shooting water jugs and pumkins. I don't see either one of them wallowing near as much as you.
 
Of course we can be polite! Let's cut the crap and you go first, STAFF.

Anyone who chooses a Judge is not incompetent.

That's some pretty bad preterition you got going on up in there.
 
The people most critical of a Judge are those who have never shot one.
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I'm pretty sure I'm the most critical of the Judge , and I've shot one one. ;)

Less than useful (legally and personally hazardous) with birdshot, lacks sufficient penetration with buckshot due to low velocity for short barrel, and only marginally effective as a large framed, 5 shot 45LC revolver with an bad trigger..... that pretty much sums it up, except for the blatantly dishonest marketing campaign that launched the fool thing into commercial success...... all at a cost that could buy a decent budget wonder9, and a basic class on using it...... but y'all know that already, yet are still married to the idea that it's a pocket shotty ...... whatever.
 
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