The continuing militarization of police

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Actually, I don't have guns because of my concerns about the government. For that, I get involved in my community. If the government gets to the point that I feel I need to resort to a gun for use against it, I don't think that there's much me and my 12 gauge would be able to do about it.

That farce about guns protecting individual rights and freedoms against government intrusion is an antique daydream (donning flamesuit as I write). Community and political activity, voting, dissemination of knowledge are the antidotes to that.

And the ostensibly tyrannical NOLA police were pretty far from tyrannical. Capricious in a few instances, maybe, but pretty far from Nazi-tyrannical.
 
Community and political activity, voting, dissemination of knowledge are the antidotes to that.
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Wildalaska, I am studying and I am here to learn. Please indicate to me specifically where I am wrong so that I can learn from my mistakes.
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Rather than take my owrd for it heres a short reading list (titles only not near my library for authors):

Ordinary Germans
The Arms of Krupp
The Rise and fall of the Third Reich

Any and all of those, and virtually every other serious work will demonstrate that the majority of the German population AND societal institutions actively supported the Nazis and their abuse of power after they took over. Any post hoc inferences to the contrary are part of the typical germanic search for exculpation in the face of their active complicity in horror.

WildimbeingsoacademiclatelyAlaska
 
yeah opposition to Hitler in germany mainly constituted either White Rose with maybe 10 members (all killed) or the Straussenberg bomb plot..which was not much more then the generals wishing to end the war.

You should like the The Rise and Fall of the THird Reich as its written by an American who lived in Berlin and witnessed his rise to become chancellor etc.

Need more proof, go back in time and try and get tickets to a good ol' Nuremberg rally.....
 
"So if we have nothing to fear from the Government then why do we even need these guns and the Second Amendment?"

Because they are fun to play with and we like them? Do we really need any more reason? After like 220 years of not subjugating us do you really think they are gonna start now? Is a government that routinely physically looses its own guns and cannot fill a car with gas without a report in triplicate really to be feared? Is a government that couldnt get bottled water to NOLA in less than 4 days really that terrifying?

I firmly believe that there is a psychological syndrome at work here, that people derive an enhanced sense of self by thinking that they are important enough to pose a threat to the government, hence requiring the gummint to be out to get them. When you look at government activities in the past, when they werre out to get someone, they got'em, such as Japanese internees, civil rights activists in the 60's, and the like. The government isnt out to get us gunowners, it is worse than that - the government doesnt care. For all of the bleating and blabbering, we just arent that important. CCW law have passed in droves - the government at large hasnt changed a bit. The AWB sunsetted(sic), literally because no one cared enough to push for renewal. We are paid lip service, and that's it.

We need our boogeymen - the government, the media, the liberals, because without them, we'd have nothing to band together and rail about. Life would be so boring without various and sundry devils.
 
So "nobody killed" equals no need?
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Another lesson in debate: You are defending a new position which flies in the face of established historical perspective: Heavily arming rural/semi rural police vs the conventional lever action and revolver. YOU need to demonstrate a need, it's not my job to demonstrate a lack thereof. All I have to do is point to history nationwide as an example of a lack thereof 99% plus of the time.

Have Officers used those long guns to effect the arrest on someone?
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They have in fact been out of the cars once, when an overzealous officer shot a dog with one...in a residential neighborhood...three blocks from a school... That one still ain't settled yet, as far as I know.
 
Any and all of those, and virtually every other serious work will demonstrate that the majority of the German population AND societal institutions actively supported the Nazis and their abuse of power after they took over. Any post hoc inferences to the contrary are part of the typical germanic search for exculpation in the face of their active complicity in horror.
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Thank you for rather demonstrating the point. Most Americans support ther local block-suited ninjas, too. They support the Patriot Act. They rally en masse to support the same politicians who keep disarming them and taxing the living hell out of them. There's only a tiny minority of us pointing to the hypocrisy and danger of this problem. The comparisons are entirely apt, and your desperate desire to distance yourself from the similarities is laughable.
 
Oh no ya dont, Sparky. Your mouth wrote the check, now it's time to cash it: Exactly why should the police be denied full auto weapons? C'mon hotshot, or is the above your way of shutting up when you cant put up
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Because most other US civilian citizens are denied them. IF an LEO wants to jump thru all the same hoops and spend his money and can get one of the limited number of legal extant FA's out there, fine. otherwise why should these civilians have anything any other civilian does not?
 
Umm, actually that would be your problem. Are you a kid flush from your first jr high debate? Yeesh. I, and others, cite history and the Constitution and the dangers of unrestrained expansion of powers, which can be easily quantified and examined.

You, OTOH, keep yelling ad homs and non sequiturs and demanding others do your work for you. You make blanket claims defending your personal preferences and insist others refute your baselss position, all the while accusing others of what you are so clearly guilty of: Demanding things are right "because" and "this is the way it should be" and other patently stupid statist ramblings.

Get a grip.
 
Yep, here's the caliber of people i want in positions of authority...

http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...2&page=1&pp=25

Note: Someone mentioned on this page the number of police in his community. I've noted the same before about mine. 20 years ago this town was slightly larger and had a certain reputation for Saturday night roughness. By ten years ago that had faded and, frankly, we just don't have crime. Druggies, stolen stereos, etc. Nothing exciting, ever. A murder maybe once every three years.

20 years ago we had 10 cops(maybe). Today we have 29, including the reserves. We have about 15 squad cars plus camo Blazers and a couple SUV's. They all have AR's and body armor, though not once in this town's history has such ever been needed nor has any officer ever been killed.

What they do is haunt the town at night and pull over people for 5 MPH over(particularly interesting in light of the above linked thread) and sit in out of town parking lots drinking beer(I've run two out of my lot). Punk kids with 4 years military experience who walk around with lots of attitude and not a clue about how to be a member of the community.
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This is your "smoking gun"
Most people have become accustomed to that response. Say anything less than complimentary about LEO and one is "cop bashing". First, that's why I offered the link. Best to let the cops bash themselves. Second, such responses just feed the fire, since if everything is cop bashing then might as well just say what needs said and not worry about it.
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"Open Minded"....
Hehehe Oh my. You should learn to debate.

We've never had an officer killed by gunfire(I think one drowned around the '20's but I'm not certain). We've never had a real firefight of any kind that involved the police. Perhaps you can tell us how I am supposed to post a lack of events for you? Then maybe you can tell us what that has to do with what I have posted, other than your obviously desperate need to change the subject?
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This gem is the gift that keeps on giving. By your logic the Police don't need shotguns in their squads, nor do they need pistols on their hips..... this is YOUR "logic".
Another lesson in debate: You are defending a new position which flies in the face of established historical perspective: Heavily arming rural/semi rural police vs the conventional lever action and revolver. YOU need to demonstrate a need, it's not my job to demonstrate a lack thereof. All I have to do is point to history nationwide as an example of a lack thereof 99% plus of the time.
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Awesome, just awesome. Since you can not back up your statement, NOR dismantle mine, you win? :rolleyes:
Thank you for rather demonstrating the point. Most Americans support ther local block-suited ninjas, too. They support the Patriot Act. They rally en masse to support the same politicians who keep disarming them and taxing the living hell out of them. There's only a tiny minority of us pointing to the hypocrisy and danger of this problem. The comparisons are entirely apt, and your desperate desire to distance yourself from the similarities is laughable.
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There's those solid, scientifically valid research results, again....:rolleyes:
Because most other US civilian citizens are denied them. IF an LEO wants to jump thru all the same hoops and spend his money and can get one of the limited number of legal extant FA's out there, fine. otherwise why should these civilians have anything any other civilian does not?
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Another gem......:rolleyes:
Umm, actually that would be your problem. Are you a kid flush from your first jr high debate? Yeesh. I, and others, cite history and the Constitution
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Misquote is more like it. Speculation doesn't make it so.
For cripes sake, you use the tactics and arguments of the Anti-gunners, only not as well! :D :D :D
 
Thank you for rather demonstrating the point. Most Americans support ther local block-suited ninjas, too. They support the Patriot Act. They rally en masse to support the same politicians who keep disarming them and taxing the living hell out of them. There's only a tiny minority of us pointing to the hypocrisy and danger of this problem. The comparisons are entirely apt, and your desperate desire to distance yourself from the similarities is laughable.
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Weak, weak weak.

Fallacy 1: There is no comparison to US police forces, most of whom are organized on a purely local level dealing with local criminal issues, and an ideologically driven "state within a State" like the SS which had direct policy and operational control of the national Political Police (Gestapo) and the national criminal Police (Kripo). Furthermore, rhetoric aside, police forces in the US do not handle purely political crimes nor act, in an organized fashion, to engage in political repression. Finally, in this area, there is no legal basis for any police force in the US to act as the Nazis did...who, with typical german correctness passed a series of laws that legalized their abuses. To compare our police system and legal system to Nazi germany demonstrates a total lack of understanding of both systems.

Fallacy 2: people in the US (including the so called sheeple who are so very less aware than their enlightened brethren who own guns and post on message Boards) do not support "black suited ninjas". Every allegation of SIGNIFICANT police abuse leads to, among other things to legal investigations and/or government investigations and/or civil/criminal actions where quite frequeentlyu, the bad actors are punished. Oridnary sheeple sit on those juries that stick it to abusive cops.

Fallcy 3. I have yet to see demonstrated, caterwauling and tinfoil to the contrary, how many innocent Americans have been caught up in the fascist net of the Patriot Act, vis a vis how many of those same innocent Americans would have been caught up in the same net wielded by the govt without the Patriot Act. As a practical matter, i support many provisions of the Patriot Act on a political level, but recognize, as to many other rational Americans that those same provisons can be misused. Time will tell, just as it did with RICO, do you want to debate that? The Courts have for the past 20 years.

Fallacy 4: Taxing and disarming? We just had a tax cut and the gun laws are better than they have been for decades. Regardless, niether have anyhting to do with the issue at hand

Fallacy 5: There are more than just "a tiny minority" of folks concerned about governmental policies. Dont flatter yourself that you are Diogenes with your lantern casting light, there are thousnads of folks who are involved in every aspect of the political process who seek to improve our nation. However, most of us find that making the odious comparison between our system and the nazis is best left to the lunatic fringes like MoveON and their associated tiny minorities.

Finally I have no desperate desire to distance myself from anyhting. Unlike you, I know what government controlled by a bunch of hate ridden authoritarian freakazoids can do..after all, I got relatives mouldering in the ravine at Baba Yar. if I thought for a sec I was in the even slightest danger from the police or government in this Country, Id take advantage of my rights to be either an Israeli or japanese and take my chances there.

By the way, if anyhting is laughable, its rhetoric without the factual basis to back it up.

Quite frankly, if the SHTF in this world, id be looking to guys like SENDEC and TheBadOne for leadership and help.

WildrantoverAlaska

Spell check turned off! learn how to type ken
 
This is why, so excuse me while I don my tinfoilhat and chase the BH's from my yard. Subsutute guns for drugs and damm, I just don't trust you to do a good job. But then I've done the research here again.Theres a whole lot more I could post but I got a busy day and I would be wasting my time.


John Adams
64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000
Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn't match the description on the warrant.

Xavier Bennett
8 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 1991
Xavier was accidentally shot to death by officers in a pre-dawn drug raid during a gunfight with one of Xavier's relatives.

Delbert Bonnar
57 years old
Belpre, Ohio
October, 1998
Shot 8 times by police in drug raid. They were looking for his son.

Rudolfo "Rudy" Cardenas
43 years old
San Jose, California
February, 2004
Rudy was a father of five who was passing by a house targeted by narcotics officers attempting to serve a parole violation warrant and the police mistakenly thought he was the one they were there to arrest. They chased Cardenas, and he fled, apparently afraid of them (they were not uniformed). Cardenas was shot multiple times in the back.

Dorothy Duckett, 78, told the Mercury News she looked out her fifth-floor window after hearing one gunshot and saw Cardenas pleading for his life. "I watched him running with his hands in the air. He kept saying, 'Don't shoot. Don't shoot,'" Duckett said. "He had absolutely nothing in his hands."

Troy Davis
25 years old
North Richland Hills, Texas
December, 1991
During a no-knock raid to find some marijuana plants he was growing, he was shot to death in his living room. There are disputed accounts regarding whether he had a gun.

Anthony Andrew Diotaiuto
23 years old
Sunrise, Florida
August, 2005
Anthony worked two jobs to help pay for the house he lived in with his mother. He had permit for a concealed weapon because of the areas he traveled through for his night job. Sunrise police claimed that he had sold some marijuana, and because they knew he had a legal gun, decided to use SWAT. Neighbors claim that the police did not identify themselves. Police first claimed that Anthony pointed his gun at them, and later changed their story. Regardless, Anthony was dead with 10 bullets in him, and the police found 2 ounces of marijuana. Article.

Annie Rae Dixon
84 years old
Tyler, Texas
January, 1993
Bedridden with pneumonia during a drug raid. Officer kicked open her bedroom door and accidentally shot her.

Patrick Dorismond
26 years old
New York, New York
March, 2000
Patrick was a security guard who wanted to become a policeman. He was off-duty and unarmed when he went out with friends. Standing on the street looking for a taxi, he was approached by undercover police who asked to buy some marijuana from him. Patrick was offended by the request (he didn't use drugs), and a scuffle ensued. Dorismond was then shot to death by the police.

Curt Ferryman
24 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
August, 2000
Undercover agents were attempting to arrest Ferryman, who was in his car and unarmed. A DEA agent knocked on the car window with his gun to get the suspect's attention, and the gun went off, killing him as he sat in the car.

Willie Heard
46 years old
Osawatomie, Kansas
February, 1999
SWAT conducted a no-knock drug raid, complete with flash-bang grenades. Heard was shot to death in front of his wife and 16-year-old daughter who had cried for help. Fearing home invasion, he was holding an empty rifle. The raid was at the wrong house.

Clayton Helriggle
23 years old
Eaton, Ohio
September, 2002
Clayton was shot to death while coming down the stairs during a suprise raid. He was carrying either a gun or a plastic cup, depending on the report. Less than an ounce of marijuana was found.

Esequiel Hernandez
18 years old
Redford, Texas
May, 1997
Hernandez was shot and killed by a Marine sniper in camouflage who was part of a military unit conducting drug interdiction activities near the Mexican border. Esequiel was out herding his family's goats and had taken a break to shoot at some tin cans with his antique rifle.

John Hirko
21 years old
Pennsylvania
1997
An unarmed man with no prior offenses was shot to death in his house by a squad of masked police. In a no-knock raid, they tossed a smoke grenade in through a window, setting the house on fire. Hirko, suspected of dealing small amounts of marijuana and cocaine, was found face down on his stairway, shot in the back while fleeing the burning building. When the fire was finally put out, officers found some marijuana seeds in an unsinged plastic bag.

Ismael Mena
45 years old
Denver, Colorado
September, 1999
Mena was killed when police barged into his house looking for drugs. They had the wrong address.

Mario Paz
65 years old
Compton, California
August, 1999
Mario was shot twice in the back in his bedroom during a SWAT raid looking for marijuana. No drugs were found.

Charmene Pickering
27 years old
Brooklyn, New York
July, 2001
Charmene was a passenger in a car driven by a drug suspect. State troopers and DEA agents were in the process of arresting the driver when the trooper's gun went off and hit Charmene in the neck, killing her. Both passenger and driver were unarmed.

Manuel Ramirez
Stockton, California
January, 1993
At 2 am, police smashed down the door and rushed into the home of Manuel Ramirez, a retired golf course groundskeeper. Ramirez awoke, grabbed a pistol and shot and killed officer Arthur Parga before other officers killed him. Police were raiding the house based on a tip that drugs were on the premises, but they found no drugs.

Officer Arthur P. Parga
32 years old
Stockton, California
January, 1993

Donald P. Scott
61 years old
Malibu, California
October, 1992
Government agencies were interested in the property of this reclusive millionaire. A warrant was issued based on concocted "evidence" of supposed marijuana plantings, and a major raid was conducted with a 32-man assault team. Scott was shot to death in front of his wife. No drugs were found.

A later official report found: "It is the District Attorney's opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott's death warrant."

Alberto Sepulveda
11 years old
Modesto, California
September, 2000
Alberto was killed by a shotgun blast to the back while following police orders and lying face down on the floor during a SWAT raid. He was a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School. This one is memorable since the final report said his gun may have misfired.

Alberta Spruill
57 years old
Harlem, New York
May, 2003
Police, acting on a tip, forced their way into Spruill's home, setting off flash grenades. She suffered a heart attack and died. It was the wrong address.


Ashley Villareal
14 years old
San Antonio, Texas
February, 2003
Ashley went outside at night with a family friend to move their freshly washed car under shelter. DEA agents, interested in her father, were staking out the house, and believing that her father was driving, shot and killed Ashley. The agents did not have a warrant for her father.

Kenneth B. Walker
39 years old
Columbus, Georgia
December, 2003
Walker and three companions were pulled over in an SUV by police in a drug investigation. No drugs or weapons were found, but Walker was shot in the head. Walker was a devoted husband and father, a respected member of his church, and a 15-year middle-management employee of Blue Cross and Blue Shield.

Deputy David Glisson, who killed Walker, was fired three months later for failing to cooperate in an investigation into the shooting.

Accelyne Williams
75 years old
Boston, Massachusetts
March, 1994
Accelyne was a retired Methodist Minister and substance abuse counselor. After an informant gave police a bad address, a SWAT raid was conducted on the minster's home. The door was battered down, Williams was tackled to the floor and his hands tied behind his back. He died of a heart attack.

 
Appeal to emotion.

In the end, it doesn't mean a damn thing in support of "your view".

Where's the Malice....:rolleyes:

Are the same "people" (you know, "The Police") involved in each incident you mentioned.

The fact that someone died in each filtered snippet means..............
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Appeal to EMOTION
 
"The fact that someone died in each filtered snippet means..............



Appeal to EMOTION"

Which you obviously lack...:barf:
 
No, I do not "lack", I simply understand the difference.

How about I post a bunch of CHILD GUN DEATHS, and thus guns should be banned?

Got it yet
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