The continuing militarization of police

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Yep, here's the caliber of people i want in positions of authority...

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33512&page=1&pp=25

Note: Someone mentioned on this page the number of police in his community. I've noted the same before about mine. 20 years ago this town was slightly larger and had a certain reputation for Saturday night roughness. By ten years ago that had faded and, frankly, we just don't have crime. Druggies, stolen stereos, etc. Nothing exciting, ever. A murder maybe once every three years.

20 years ago we had 10 cops(maybe). Today we have 29, including the reserves. We have about 15 squad cars plus camo Blazers and a couple SUV's. They all have AR's and body armor, though not once in this town's history has such ever been needed nor has any officer ever been killed.

What they do is haunt the town at night and pull over people for 5 MPH over(particularly interesting in light of the above linked thread) and sit in out of town parking lots drinking beer(I've run two out of my lot). Punk kids with 4 years military experience who walk around with lots of attitude and not a clue about how to be a member of the community.
 
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Most people have become accustomed to that response. Say anything less than complimentary about LEO and one is "cop bashing". First, that's why I offered the link. Best to let the cops bash themselves. Second, such responses just feed the fire, since if everything is cop bashing then might as well just say what needs said and not worry about it. :rolleyes:
 
Sendec
Not at all, I just want some indication that you arent pulling your opinions out of your butt.

Tell me why M16s have no place in "community law enforcement". Because of incidents like Columbine? Granby? North Hollywood? Miami? Please, dazzle me with your brilliant insights into modern law enforcement operations. I wait, breathless in anticipation.......
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When you pull facts out of the air and I refute them, then switch to personal attacks the debate is over. Go somewhere else with your misinformation. As I said to you once before in another thread "Im done with you"
 
You know, I told myself I'd stay out of this thread, but what the hey, right?

Umm, this thread seems to have gone from the "increasing militarization of the police" to "the JBT's from East Bumblefart County P. D. tazered my dog Roscoe because he wee-ed on a fire hydrant."

I'm not a law enforcement officer, nor do I play one on the Internet. Nor am I a Constitutional scholar, and I don't pretend to be one either. Constitutional arguments and practical experience aside, here goes:

I think we all can agree on two basic facts: 1) that firearms of any sort are a form of technology, and 2) that law enforcement agencies have existed for a long time in this country and are a necessary part of its 'fabric of governance,' if you will. Maybe they weren't mandated by the Constitution, but they sure have been around for a while, and in that time they have availed themselves of the technology necessary to perform their duties.

Ergo, if their duties make it necessary to use fully automatic weapons and dress in BDU's, more power to them. I don't really see what the problem is here, so long as they are properly trained and qualified to deploy those forms of technology. Does that mean that every officer needs a howitzer? No, it doesn't. But they don't need their handgun or baton for 99% of their duties, either, and nobody seems to take issue with that, and rightly so.

Now, does that mean there's no such thing as "excessive force?" Absolutely not. I think anybody who's read a newspaper or watched the evening news in the last decade can attest to the fact that there's a few bad apples out there and cite examples ad nauseam adque infinitum. But a bad apple a bad bushel does not make. Likewise, there's plenty of examples of bad citizenry, but a bad citizen a bad citizenry does not make.

And comparisons with Nazi Germany are so off-base as to be ludicrous. "Bad cops" are a far cry from the Gestapo, but I suppose you'd have to read a little history to determine that.

Anyway, just my distinctly underqualified two cents. And, hey, I lean toward the liberal side, so I'm just commie pinko scum salivating at the chance to crush the freedom-lovers under the heels of my JBT's.

And I'm still waiting for my chest-thumpin' smilie ...
 
Where are you posting "the entire town's history" for validation?
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Hehehe :D Oh my. You should learn to debate.

We've never had an officer killed by gunfire(I think one drowned around the '20's but I'm not certain). We've never had a real firefight of any kind that involved the police. Perhaps you can tell us how I am supposed to post a lack of events for you? Then maybe you can tell us what that has to do with what I have posted, other than your obviously desperate need to change the subject?
 
Hehehe Oh my. You should learn to debate.

We've never had an officer killed by gunfire(I think one drowned around the '20's but I'm not certain). We've never had a real firefight of any kind that involved the police. Perhaps you can tell us how I am supposed to post a lack of events for you? Then maybe you can tell us what that has to do with what I have posted, other than your obviously desperate need to change the subject?
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So "nobody killed" equals no need?
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Have Officers used those long guns to effect the arrest on someone?
 
thebadone
I wish people would read these threads instead of jumping in ant the end and thinking they understand someones position. I refer you to post 5.
 
Can 'o worms

And comparisons with Nazi Germany are so off-base as to be ludicrous. "Bad cops" are a far cry from the Gestapo, but I suppose you'd have to read a little history to determine that.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo
Excerpts:

The Gestapo was established on April 26, 1933, in Prussia, from the existing organization of the Prussian Secret Police. The Gestapo was first simply a branch of the Prussian Police, known as "Department 1A of the Prussian State Police".

Its first commander was Rudolf Diels who recruited members from professional police departments and ran the Gestapo as a federal police agency, comparable to several modern examples such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The power of the Gestapo most open to misuse was "Schutzhaft" or "protective custody" — a euphemism for the power to imprison people without judicial proceedings, typically in concentration camps. The person imprisoned even had to sign his or her own Schutzhaftbefehl, the document declaring that the person desired to be imprisoned. Normally this signature was forced by beatings and torture.

The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the State." It had the authority to investigate treason, espionage and sabotage cases, and cases of criminal attacks on the Nazi Party and on Germany.

The law had been changed in such a way that the Gestapo's actions were not subject to judicial review. Nazi jurist Dr. Werner Best stated, "As long as the [Gestapo] ... carries out the will of the leadership, it is acting legally." The Gestapo was specifically exempted from responsibility to administrative courts, where citizens normally could sue the state to conform to laws.

Laws passed in 1936 effectively gave the Gestapo carte blanche to operate without judicial oversight.

During World War II, the Gestapo was expanded to around 45,000 members. It helped control conquered areas of Europe and identify Jews, Socialists, homosexuals and others for forced deportation and murder.

These groups, the Nazi leadership corps, the Reich Cabinet, the German General Staff and High Command, the SA (Sturmabteilung), the SS (Schutzstaffel-including the Sicherheitsdienst, or SD), and the Gestapo (Secret Police), had an aggregate membership exceeding two million, and it was estimated that approximately half of them would be made liable for trial if the groups were convicted.

/Excerpts

The point I am trying to make is that a few pieces of legislation is all that seperates the current crop of "bad apples" from a modern reincarnation of the afore mentioned, because we all know that not every German police officer in the 1930's and 1940's was a racist homicidal homophobic maniac. Only the "bad apples" (2 million of 'em) were up to those tasks.

Can't let a few "bad apples" spoil the bunch now can we.
 
Post #5

Sort of like this thread I started on another forum. If NO, Waco or Ruby Ridge wasn't a wake up call nothing will be.
Militarization of our Police Force
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...id=33071&rfi=6

I find this trend troubling for many reasons. First the Shoot out in LA, which was played over and over again on TV, was an aberration not the norm. (....and never mind the boatfull of school shootings)

For the life of me I see no reason for police issuing M16-A1 weapons to the rank and file. A semi AR15 would suffice and I would say had they been available during the LA shootout instead of raiding a local gun store to obtain them the shoot out would have ended sooner.

It take discipline to effectively fire full auto and in most instances it is a last resort measure. Under stress most untrained people will spray and pray. I think this puts the citizens at risk along with fellow officers. (Who has these "full auto weapons"?)

I also believe (some "proof") this leads us down the path to a Police State.

I wont link to the thread but if you want to look at it search THR. It went on for a couple of days and had the usual crowd.

Sheriff's Office Acquires 25 M-16 Rifles
By Ed Pruneau
01/19/2005
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Franklin County sheriff's deputies will soon be rmed with new M-16 rifles obt
The 25 rifles, worth close to $50,000, were delivered recently to the sheriff's office in Union.

The only charge to the county was for shipping expenses, according to Maj. Mike Copeland, chief deputy, who applied for the surplus arms through the 1033 Property Disposal Program administered by the Law Enforcement Support Office.

"It's a heck of a program," Copeland remarked.

A couple of years ago, the sheriff's office acquired 20 M-14 rifles through the program. The department also received a van which is used by ERT (Emergency Response Team) squad members, along with clothing and other surplus military equipment.

Sheriff Gary Toelke credits Copeland, and his meticulous attention to details in the application process, with obtaining the equipment for the department.

"They (DoD officials) said they never saw a cleaner application," Toelke commented. "They've even requested some of the forms that Mike made up."

The 1033 program is designed to transfer excess DoD property to federal, state and local law enforcement agencies with special emphasis given to counter-drug and counter-terrorism activities.

"What helps us is that we have big numbers in methamphetamine offenders," Copeland said. "Also, we have been very pro-active in fighting meth in Franklin County."

The M-16 rifles, while new, are 1976 and 1979 vintage, Copeland noted. However, they have never been fired.

Deputies will have to train and qualify with the M-16s before they will be able to carry them, he explained.

Officials hope that officers will never have to fire one of the rifles on duty. However, it's important in certain situations to be able to match the firepower of some criminals, Copeland said.

More than 17,000 local law enforcement agencies have taken advantage of the 1033 program to acquire surplus military equipment.

Under terms of the program, local agencies may not sell or transfer any equipment, and must turn it back over to the DoD if it wants to dispose of it, Copeland explained.
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Lots of speculation and leaps of logic there, again making my point.



...and redhawk has invoked Godwins Law, again.
 
redhawk41, good point and well taken. No, bad apples definitely should not be allowed to spoil the crop, and yes, there may be a need for more legislation, training, etc. to prevent that from happening.

I think that the problem with this thread, and what I was getting at with the Gestapo remark, is that paranoid overreaction doesn't help any either. That's what seems more prevelant here ... there still is a vast distance to cover, despite a lack of legislative safegaurds, between the mentality of a modern American police officer and a Nazi police officer.
 
2nd amendment, I would hate to see your town abolish firearms for officers, and then have some organized columbine like situation pop off. they have those firearms for what if situations, not we use these day stuff. If that where true more then half the cops in this country could give up their pistols.
 
...and redhawk has invoked Godwins Law, again
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Well I don't remember invoking said law previously which leads me to question how I could do it again. Now is there anything specific with the relative post you would like to address or is 'invoking Godwins Law' your way of dodging legitimate point arguments?

Please keep in mind that I have not stated that this is happening or will happen, simply that it has happened in the past and we all know what happens when we disregard history.
 
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