The continuing militarization of police
- Thread starter jimpeel
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Unlike LEOs, "lots of the guys who... [have] no compunction about open carrying" are not public servants. They don't owe soccermoms anything. Police, however, are public employees.Wildalaska said:
As for the complaining about subguns on police motorcycles, governments reap what they sow. They hand down arbitrary decrees on which guns private citizens are permitted to own and carry, and the people, once governments validate the idea that guns are evil, are likely to reciprocate.
"So here we are, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me, and I won't push you."
Breacherup
I do not think anyone would debate the framers concern of a standing army and there is much debate in the literature surrounding this. Militarization of the police is the subject here that means to me training in techniques, federalizing the police during emergency and things that have little to do with community policing. I don’t see where M16’s fit into this picture. We could spend the next 20 post debating the pros and cons of automatic weapons fire but it is suffice to say that it’s purpose is usually suppressive in nature and not a tactic that should be employed within the community.
There is also more than sufficient evidence of police abuse of power that fortunately is an exception and not the rule but it is well documented in the courts, by eyewitness testimony, investigation and direct video evidence along with outright obstruction of justice. This is I believe the root of our concern and what we as citizens can do to protect our Republic(edit) from a move to a police state.
That has not been my experience. While that certainly may be possible the half dozen sources I have used, and I verify them first by tracking down the document personally, have been accurate. I believe all writing should be critically evaluated.
I do not think anyone would debate the framers concern of a standing army and there is much debate in the literature surrounding this. Militarization of the police is the subject here that means to me training in techniques, federalizing the police during emergency and things that have little to do with community policing. I don’t see where M16’s fit into this picture. We could spend the next 20 post debating the pros and cons of automatic weapons fire but it is suffice to say that it’s purpose is usually suppressive in nature and not a tactic that should be employed within the community.
There is also more than sufficient evidence of police abuse of power that fortunately is an exception and not the rule but it is well documented in the courts, by eyewitness testimony, investigation and direct video evidence along with outright obstruction of justice. This is I believe the root of our concern and what we as citizens can do to protect our Republic(edit) from a move to a police state.
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TheeBadOne
Moderator
More fluff and generalizations (and "hand-wringing").
We've been here before. What are the "automatic weapons" that you mention. Who has them? Are they the rule or the exception? Source?
We've been here before. What are the "automatic weapons" that you mention. Who has them? Are they the rule or the exception? Source?
sumabich said:
While I agree that there is such a thing as "Bulls**t Law Enforcement", it only occurs as a direct result of officers interpreting laws in a way which is too inflexible or technical. For example, an officer pulls a guy over for doing 70 in a 65, even though that was the speed of the flow of traffic. Though handing out speeding tickets is designed to deter citizens from endangering others by driving too fast, it is too often an underhanded means of generating revenue within a city. I assume this is what you're referring to when you say you are anti "law enforcement".
Personally, I think there are plenty of LEOs out there that do interpret the law as it was meant to be interpreted, and there are also those who mindlessly carry out the letter of the law, without respect to the spirit of the law. It happens. When it happens to excess, the issue must be brought into the spotlight. But even this is better than the alternative, which is anarchy.
tyme ... you misunderstood my point, I did not intend to insinuate that the level of force used was appropriate, I don't know the whole story; however, it was said that of the ravers... " No one resisted. That's for sure"... and ..."there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of ****ing TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. "... I have never seen (maybe it's possible and/ HAS happened) nor heard of a group that large being so cooperative, especially at that age, and influence level. It is EXTREMELY likely that we don't know some key details. Maybe the actions were still over the top, but we don't KNOW for sure.
sumabich ... As I prepared to restate my comments to you and elaborate, I noticed where you are (Shelby)... Having noticed that, I will merely apologize. I am too familiar with that area of NC to waste the effort. Btw... ask the Grand Dragon if his ribs are better since my last visit there, not likely he will have forgotten me, lmao.
sumabich ... As I prepared to restate my comments to you and elaborate, I noticed where you are (Shelby)... Having noticed that, I will merely apologize. I am too familiar with that area of NC to waste the effort. Btw... ask the Grand Dragon if his ribs are better since my last visit there, not likely he will have forgotten me, lmao.
TheeBadOne
Moderator
I did read it, and I've re-read it, and all I see is the same-ole-same-ole "hand-wringing", misinformation, and generalizations.
ALL the LE agencies in my area acquired M16 rifles from the Military at a minimal cost. ALL of them have been converted to semi-automatic mode ONLY.
This has been discussed before, and continuing to try to color it as "All kinds of Cops have been given Machine Guns" ( with lack of evidence, and in fact, in the face of evidence that refutes that) is a continuation of bias.
Also, food for thought:
Law Enforcement is not a Spectator Sport. If you are in the middle of a mission or incident and discover the need for a tool or equipment, you don't often have the luxury of calling a "time out", (or putting your video game on pause while you get up out of your easy chair). You have to try to plan for all contingencies and equip accordingly. If it's cold out, better have enough cold weather gear. If a large crowd event, better be prepared for crowd control/riot scenarios.
It's better to have a tool and never need it, then to not have it and need ti badly.
TBO
Americanpie
Inactive
Howdy all,
I'm not usually very active on message boards but this here thread has hit a nerve with me.
I'm 46, an Air Force veteran, married, employed, living in a little six foot town in liberal occupied Illinois.
I've always had respect for the law and it's enforcers, and have no criminal record.
But a few things have happened over the last couple years that have caused my respect for LEO's to waiver a little.
About a year ago, I went out of town to visit my folks for the weekend. My wife decides to go out and have a few drinks with her girlfriends. She leaves her friends at the bar about 2300 and proceeds to drive the 1.2 miles home. A police officer pulls her over and tells her the reason she was pulled over was because she had no headlights on. (I find this difficult to believe because they come on automatically when you start the car). He smells alchohol on her breath, so she is ultimately arrested for DUI. They take her to another town twenty miles away to book her. Then they let her bond herself out, taking every last penny she had. She asked them how was she supposed to get home. They said, "that's your problem". So she left the station and started walking down the highway. Well since neither of us are from this area, and now it's about 0130, she got confused and walked down the wrong highway. She tried calling me on her cell phone twenty or thirty times, but where I was, there was no signal. She walks and walks down this dark two lane country highway, and finally realizes she was going the wrong way. She gets scared and her only option left was to call 911, so she calls. A patrol car finds her, and finally gives her a ride back to our house. Funny, they managed to call a tow truck for her car, but couldn't handle calling a cab for her.
Fine, give her a DUI, but the last time I checked, kidnapping, robbery, and wreckless endangerment were illegal too.
More recently, a fishing and hunting buddy of mine, who lives in another little hick town, has a wonderful law enforcement experience himself: He's been having problems with his teenage daughter. She's been hangin with the wrong crowd and experimenting with drugs. One time she comes home late and when my buddy confronts her, she becomes belligerent. He decides to call the police to have them come over and put a scare into her. Mind you, this girl is only 17 and weighs about 85-90 lbs. When the officers get there, one of the big bad officers grabs her and violently slams her down, twists her arm into a wrist lock, knees her hard in the neck and cuffs her. So my buddy tries to stop mister macho man from beating up his daughter, so the other officer beats on him with a baton, and throws him to the ground and cuffs him. After that, he gets shot with a taser. Ultimately he was arrested for interferring with an officer, and later told by his local DA that the officers acted appropriately. I don't think he had that in mind when he called for their help.
Things are definately different now. Looks to me like they'll let just about any dirtbag wear a badge these days.
I'm not usually very active on message boards but this here thread has hit a nerve with me.
I'm 46, an Air Force veteran, married, employed, living in a little six foot town in liberal occupied Illinois.
I've always had respect for the law and it's enforcers, and have no criminal record.
But a few things have happened over the last couple years that have caused my respect for LEO's to waiver a little.
About a year ago, I went out of town to visit my folks for the weekend. My wife decides to go out and have a few drinks with her girlfriends. She leaves her friends at the bar about 2300 and proceeds to drive the 1.2 miles home. A police officer pulls her over and tells her the reason she was pulled over was because she had no headlights on. (I find this difficult to believe because they come on automatically when you start the car). He smells alchohol on her breath, so she is ultimately arrested for DUI. They take her to another town twenty miles away to book her. Then they let her bond herself out, taking every last penny she had. She asked them how was she supposed to get home. They said, "that's your problem". So she left the station and started walking down the highway. Well since neither of us are from this area, and now it's about 0130, she got confused and walked down the wrong highway. She tried calling me on her cell phone twenty or thirty times, but where I was, there was no signal. She walks and walks down this dark two lane country highway, and finally realizes she was going the wrong way. She gets scared and her only option left was to call 911, so she calls. A patrol car finds her, and finally gives her a ride back to our house. Funny, they managed to call a tow truck for her car, but couldn't handle calling a cab for her.
Fine, give her a DUI, but the last time I checked, kidnapping, robbery, and wreckless endangerment were illegal too.
More recently, a fishing and hunting buddy of mine, who lives in another little hick town, has a wonderful law enforcement experience himself: He's been having problems with his teenage daughter. She's been hangin with the wrong crowd and experimenting with drugs. One time she comes home late and when my buddy confronts her, she becomes belligerent. He decides to call the police to have them come over and put a scare into her. Mind you, this girl is only 17 and weighs about 85-90 lbs. When the officers get there, one of the big bad officers grabs her and violently slams her down, twists her arm into a wrist lock, knees her hard in the neck and cuffs her. So my buddy tries to stop mister macho man from beating up his daughter, so the other officer beats on him with a baton, and throws him to the ground and cuffs him. After that, he gets shot with a taser. Ultimately he was arrested for interferring with an officer, and later told by his local DA that the officers acted appropriately. I don't think he had that in mind when he called for their help.
Things are definately different now. Looks to me like they'll let just about any dirtbag wear a badge these days.
Where does it say that and back at you, reference please. I suppose those MP5's are a figment of my wild imagination, or maybe there photoshopped.
My post 63 still stands. I don't see a need in community law enforcement.
You haven’t convinced me.
And welcome Americanpie
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what happened in that video looks wrong to me. BUT did anyone find out if they had a permit to be there yet? when did this happen? dont you think the local authorities responsible for that would be sued 600 times over if those people had a permit and a right to be there? can anyone shed some light on this please for all of us.
you also cannot blame those officers for going in there with riot gear and big guns. imagine your ordered by your boss to go into that mess are you going to just wear your uniform and sidearm? the people to blame are alot higher up then those officers were, im almost completly certain.
I do not think it matters one bit if police officers are given long guns as long as they have the proper training with them.
you also cannot blame those officers for going in there with riot gear and big guns. imagine your ordered by your boss to go into that mess are you going to just wear your uniform and sidearm? the people to blame are alot higher up then those officers were, im almost completly certain.
I do not think it matters one bit if police officers are given long guns as long as they have the proper training with them.
"And welcome Americanpie"
Translated: "Thanks for your tale of woe, there is plenty of room on the bandwagon for you."
"But a few things have happened over the last couple years that have caused my respect for LEO's to waiver a little"
Funny that, the same thing has happened to me regarding civilians
Translated: "Thanks for your tale of woe, there is plenty of room on the bandwagon for you."
"But a few things have happened over the last couple years that have caused my respect for LEO's to waiver a little"
Funny that, the same thing has happened to me regarding civilians
From Sendec
Wrong
The United States Revenue Cutter Service was established by Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in 1790 as an armed maritime law enforcement service. Throughout its entire existence the Revenue Cutter Service operated under the authority of the United States Department of the Treasury. In 1915 the Service merged with the Lifesaving Service to form the United States Coast Guard.
So it appears that this statement may closer to the truth and appeared in some form a year later. The ratification of the US Constitution was 1788
Wrong
The United States Revenue Cutter Service was established by Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton in 1790 as an armed maritime law enforcement service. Throughout its entire existence the Revenue Cutter Service operated under the authority of the United States Department of the Treasury. In 1915 the Service merged with the Lifesaving Service to form the United States Coast Guard.
So it appears that this statement may closer to the truth and appeared in some form a year later. The ratification of the US Constitution was 1788
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Americanpie
Inactive
"Funny that, the same thing has happened to me regarding civilians"
So, I take it you're a military police officer?
I'd just like to know exactly when your job shifted from public service to "profit deal".
So, I take it you're a military police officer?
I'd just like to know exactly when your job shifted from public service to "profit deal".
Hunter Rose
New member
>Funny that, the same thing has happened to me regarding civilians<
And that's the crux of the problem right there, folks. Too many police are looking at it as "Us cops" and "those civilians". You AREN'T some form of elite military unit just because you're a cop: you're just another citizen, albeit with a job *I* wouldn't want. Start acting like it, and you'll find more respect here...
Had a cop call me a "civilian" while I was in the Navy (he was being a butt-head anyway, which didn't help). I spent a good ten minutes dressing him down beside the road for it...
And that's the crux of the problem right there, folks. Too many police are looking at it as "Us cops" and "those civilians". You AREN'T some form of elite military unit just because you're a cop: you're just another citizen, albeit with a job *I* wouldn't want. Start acting like it, and you'll find more respect here...
Had a cop call me a "civilian" while I was in the Navy (he was being a butt-head anyway, which didn't help). I spent a good ten minutes dressing him down beside the road for it...
Americanpie
Inactive
Yep, my little town got along just fine with one sheriff and two deputies for the last hundred and fifty years. The town hasn't gotten much bigger (pop. +/-200, mostly old German farmers). We don't have any crime. NONE.
I can still leave my keys in my car overnight, but now for some reason we have to have no less than twelve full time officers, complete with black bdu's, black cars, black riot gear etc. They never have anything to do, so they just make something up.
I can still leave my keys in my car overnight, but now for some reason we have to have no less than twelve full time officers, complete with black bdu's, black cars, black riot gear etc. They never have anything to do, so they just make something up.
That response was rude to a first time poster. Off by a year. All your information was off....
Are you looking at the world through filters?
If you read the paper it never said village constable never existed it said PROFESSIONAL police. Why do you only see what you want to see and ignore the rest?
in 1844 New York City created the first police department in the United States, using the London Metropolitan police as a model. Look it up....
Are you looking at the world through filters?
If you read the paper it never said village constable never existed it said PROFESSIONAL police. Why do you only see what you want to see and ignore the rest?
in 1844 New York City created the first police department in the United States, using the London Metropolitan police as a model. Look it up....
TheeBadOne
Moderator
Godwins Law already appeared in this thread long ago.
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