TylerD45ACP
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DONT LET IT DIE NOT YET 
The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT
- Thread starter TylerD45ACP
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Ayoobs article is badly titled, as it does not go into the real lessons learned from the blood of the FBI Agents. As I posted earlier in this very thread:
1. Attitude is all important. TODAY could be THE DAY for you. Train, prepare, and act as though it is.
2. Training matters - at the time, the FBI did not teach their own personnel vehicle stops tactics. I taught them for my Federal Agency, and we never taught pulling up alongside the suspect vehicles, nor ramming them.
3. Shot Placement matters - not the caliber, kind of ammo, or number of rounds in the gun. As we said, a single .22 short in the brain stem is better than a hit in the pinky with a .500 S&W. It's interesting but ultimatly useless to anylise to the 100th degree the guns and ammo.
4. Information sharing is critical - McNeil was asked by one of the agents, just before the shooting started, if they should notify the local PD. His reply was "No, their assistance will not be needed."
5. Identification matters -The first calls to 9-1-1 were "there is a bunch of white guys shooting at a bunch of white guys". The first officers on scene could not help the FBI, because they did not know who was who.
NONE OF THIS FAULTS THE AGENTS! They did the best they could with the training, information, and abilities that they had. Their agency failed them, mostly by allowing the "It's not going to happen to me!" mindset and the failure to train them for a clearly probable event - an unknown risk car stop. I have been in similar circumstances, but had already sought out additional training beyond what my agency offered. In one case, it saved a number of lives, including my own.
(The information I base this on includes, but is not limited to: The Treasury Dept. report of the incident; seeing all 3 of the police videos about it; seeing the lecture by the lead investigator at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and 27 years as a Federal Agent, 25 as a firearms instructor.)
1. Attitude is all important. TODAY could be THE DAY for you. Train, prepare, and act as though it is.
2. Training matters - at the time, the FBI did not teach their own personnel vehicle stops tactics. I taught them for my Federal Agency, and we never taught pulling up alongside the suspect vehicles, nor ramming them.
3. Shot Placement matters - not the caliber, kind of ammo, or number of rounds in the gun. As we said, a single .22 short in the brain stem is better than a hit in the pinky with a .500 S&W. It's interesting but ultimatly useless to anylise to the 100th degree the guns and ammo.
4. Information sharing is critical - McNeil was asked by one of the agents, just before the shooting started, if they should notify the local PD. His reply was "No, their assistance will not be needed."
5. Identification matters -The first calls to 9-1-1 were "there is a bunch of white guys shooting at a bunch of white guys". The first officers on scene could not help the FBI, because they did not know who was who.
NONE OF THIS FAULTS THE AGENTS! They did the best they could with the training, information, and abilities that they had. Their agency failed them, mostly by allowing the "It's not going to happen to me!" mindset and the failure to train them for a clearly probable event - an unknown risk car stop. I have been in similar circumstances, but had already sought out additional training beyond what my agency offered. In one case, it saved a number of lives, including my own.
(The information I base this on includes, but is not limited to: The Treasury Dept. report of the incident; seeing all 3 of the police videos about it; seeing the lecture by the lead investigator at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and 27 years as a Federal Agent, 25 as a firearms instructor.)
TylerD45ACP
New member
@Sleuth WOW awesome post brother. I agree with 100% of what you said and I dont think it could have been said better. If ypu dont mind sharing some LEO stories I would love to hear them otherwise I undertand, thanks.
Oh, I agree on the point of larger bullets presuming the same point of impact. But my comments are on what did happen, not what could have happened.
In the 'what if' game, IF the FBI agents armed with MP5's had made it to the scene; IF Metro dade had been notified; IF the FBI agents all had their shotguns in the car, not in the trunk; IF they had been armed with .500 S&W's rather than .38/.357/9mm's, etc. etc. It can go on forever.
One other point: when you see the video of the Regan shooting, notice the uniformed police officer who turns to look at Regan as he exits the building. We were all told "The protectee is not a threat - don't look at him, watch the crowd." IF that officer had watched the crowd, Regan might not have been shot. The gun came out of the crowd right next to that officer. Perhaps he could have deflected it, perhaps not.
And no one I know can absolutly predict the outcome of any single shot on a human. So to say Regan 'would not' have reached the hospital is speculation. Perhaps the bigger gun would not have gone unnoticed by the crowd. Perhaps the .357 round would not have followed the same path after hitting the limo. Once again, we are into "What If...?", with it's infinite possibilities.
In the 'what if' game, IF the FBI agents armed with MP5's had made it to the scene; IF Metro dade had been notified; IF the FBI agents all had their shotguns in the car, not in the trunk; IF they had been armed with .500 S&W's rather than .38/.357/9mm's, etc. etc. It can go on forever.
One other point: when you see the video of the Regan shooting, notice the uniformed police officer who turns to look at Regan as he exits the building. We were all told "The protectee is not a threat - don't look at him, watch the crowd." IF that officer had watched the crowd, Regan might not have been shot. The gun came out of the crowd right next to that officer. Perhaps he could have deflected it, perhaps not.
And no one I know can absolutly predict the outcome of any single shot on a human. So to say Regan 'would not' have reached the hospital is speculation. Perhaps the bigger gun would not have gone unnoticed by the crowd. Perhaps the .357 round would not have followed the same path after hitting the limo. Once again, we are into "What If...?", with it's infinite possibilities.
No it wasn't. It was regular semi-auto Mini stolen from a gun owner who was shooting an an informal range. Not sure if it belonged to the one guy who survived the attack or not. Wonder if the gov ever gave him his stuff back?
IIRC Platt fired a total of about 40 rounds from the Mini.
TylerD45ACP
New member
It wasnt Stolen Platt bought A Stainless ruger Mini 14 with the (Gov. folding stock) I believe, and it was Semi auto. Semi auto is the way to go unless you are REALLY CLOSE. They also owned the shotgun Matix used (S&W 3000 12G) the 2 357's (Platt: 586 6"/ Matix: Dan Wesson 5"). Matix also had his own rifle an AR Sporter of some type. Platt bout 5,000 rounds of 55gr. ammo at one point I remember readin it in some LEO passage. He was said to be and was unfortuantley proficient with the MINI 14.
@ Crosshair You recall correctly just about it was at least 42 rounds, possibly more. He probably fired around 50. Record states 42 .223 rounds fired from the Minin 14 Platt used
@ Crosshair You recall correctly just about it was at least 42 rounds, possibly more. He probably fired around 50. Record states 42 .223 rounds fired from the Minin 14 Platt used
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Single Six
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Tyler: Don't know if you're aware of this, but in the latest issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob revisits this incident. He also credits the book you mentioned. Just wanted to give you the heads-up.
The number of choices open to the Agents of the FBI were very, very small. They had little to choose from in guns, and merely carrying a non-authorized gun could result in being fired on the spot.
Plus, at the time, the FBI line was that their training was THE VERY BEST, and FBI agents did not attend outside training without authorization (which was rarely granted). I never met one at any outside firearms or officer survival training, except when they were "instructors". See, to attend outside training would suggest that The Bureau did not know it all.
There were still many Hoover era supervisors in the Bureau, whose primary rule was "Don't Embarass the Bureau". Criticizing a Supervisor was a quick career ender. Even suggesting another course of action was considered critical.
For example, FBI agents were forbidden to compete in Police firearms competitions, because they might not win. No PPC, and certainly no IPSC or Police Combat (as we used to call it), where a lowly civilian might defeat a "Mighty Special Agent of the F B I."
I violated our firearms rules - err, well, let's just say I streached them to their limits - but the Bureau was far more 'rulebound' than my agency. My Supervisors understood that the rules could not cover ever situation.
Only those who have worked in a Government Bureaucracy have a clue about how anal it can be, and the FBI was worse than any other. (For example, only Hoover was allowed to use blue ink. Everyone else had to use black ink, down to the lowlyest clerk.)
Plus, at the time, the FBI line was that their training was THE VERY BEST, and FBI agents did not attend outside training without authorization (which was rarely granted). I never met one at any outside firearms or officer survival training, except when they were "instructors". See, to attend outside training would suggest that The Bureau did not know it all.
There were still many Hoover era supervisors in the Bureau, whose primary rule was "Don't Embarass the Bureau". Criticizing a Supervisor was a quick career ender. Even suggesting another course of action was considered critical.
For example, FBI agents were forbidden to compete in Police firearms competitions, because they might not win. No PPC, and certainly no IPSC or Police Combat (as we used to call it), where a lowly civilian might defeat a "Mighty Special Agent of the F B I."
I violated our firearms rules - err, well, let's just say I streached them to their limits - but the Bureau was far more 'rulebound' than my agency. My Supervisors understood that the rules could not cover ever situation.
Only those who have worked in a Government Bureaucracy have a clue about how anal it can be, and the FBI was worse than any other. (For example, only Hoover was allowed to use blue ink. Everyone else had to use black ink, down to the lowlyest clerk.)
TylerD45ACP
New member
@ Sleuth No I didnt thanks for the heads up. I might not load my gun with loads not authorized for FBI. However I might of had a load or two of 357's and would have used it when it got real serious. I rather get fired than fired upon with a .223; Also I would INSIST if I was on this stakeout I had an MP5 with my sidearm (S&W459 Probably). But I would have 2 30 round mags taped together and have it ready to rock even before the stop. I would have extra couple mags of course. If I had that on me Full Auto at the distance of the car I could have ended that probably before either got out. Or at least get Matix then seek cover and get Platt. He'd get a FULL magazine 
, if I knew in retrospect.
, if I knew in retrospect.Tyler, if you were found with unauthorized ammo, you could get a repremand (in writing)! Plus, at the time ONLY FBI SWAT guys could carry the 459. Same with the MP5. Regular agents could not get one from the vault.
BTW, the FBI did provide the agents with 'suitable' firearms and ammo. It's just that an agent in New Mexico may have different needs from an agent in NYC - but no variation was allowed. In that regard, depending on who was in charge, my agency was the same. It took years to get semi-autos, but then we could carry our own. Later, there was a change in command, and only the issue S&W 6906 was allowed. Then we could carry our own, as long as they were DA for the first shot.
Also, not every Fed in every agent was a good shot - or even liked to carry a gun! The PR flacks would like you to believe otherwise, but I have seen guys & gals unable to hit the side of a barn - from the inside!
BTW, the FBI did provide the agents with 'suitable' firearms and ammo. It's just that an agent in New Mexico may have different needs from an agent in NYC - but no variation was allowed. In that regard, depending on who was in charge, my agency was the same. It took years to get semi-autos, but then we could carry our own. Later, there was a change in command, and only the issue S&W 6906 was allowed. Then we could carry our own, as long as they were DA for the first shot.
Also, not every Fed in every agent was a good shot - or even liked to carry a gun! The PR flacks would like you to believe otherwise, but I have seen guys & gals unable to hit the side of a barn - from the inside!
TylerD45ACP
New member
LoL the barn from the inside. That stinks though so you could get in huge trouble just for having a couple IN CASE 357's so thats a no no. I figured it would be. Say If I was SWAT like in Doves postion I would have the MP5 on rock n roll.
-- About the ammo and carrying regulations I feel bad for the agents. It sounds like they were given what was minimal to "survive" and do their job. I feel bad for you LEO's back they who were undergunned because of politics or what have you. Thanks for the info always interesting.
-- About the ammo and carrying regulations I feel bad for the agents. It sounds like they were given what was minimal to "survive" and do their job. I feel bad for you LEO's back they who were undergunned because of politics or what have you. Thanks for the info always interesting.
Back when I started, I did not feel undergunned with my 5 shot .38 and a shotgun. It was a different time. But I practiced alot with that gun - which I still have and shoot!
When I retired, I carried a SIG 220 & two spare mags, and a Steyr AUG 5.56 3 shot burst with 3 spare mags, and still did not feel undergunned. But I had been the lead instructor at our academy in Firearms and Officer Safety and Survival for 9 years by then. I put a lot of rounds through that AUG, and the SIG.
When I retired, I carried a SIG 220 & two spare mags, and a Steyr AUG 5.56 3 shot burst with 3 spare mags, and still did not feel undergunned. But I had been the lead instructor at our academy in Firearms and Officer Safety and Survival for 9 years by then. I put a lot of rounds through that AUG, and the SIG.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Sounds like you know what your talking about. I would imagine so after so many great year of service, thank you. Practice is key. I would probably feel ok back then with a .38 and a shotgun but would still want a bit more in my pistol, a Semi. I Just prefer them as primary's, revolvers as BUGs. But Id have to be SWAT.
--- A Sig 220 with 25 rounds of 45ACP and an AUG with 120 rounds of 5.56 would defintley make me feel comfortable. I just rather trade the firearms up.
--- A Sig 220 with 25 rounds of 45ACP and an AUG with 120 rounds of 5.56 would defintley make me feel comfortable. I just rather trade the firearms up.
secret_agent_man
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A shotgun is like good fried chicken. Hard to pass up.
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