The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

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That is right actuallly I just did some looking around because I wanted to know exactly what he had. Sounds like it did the job; either the .38 or 9mm would have if they got better hits.
 
If they had been hit with a .357 or .40 than that little 9mm things would have ended a lot sooner. He would have had a large hole in his heart as well. A 9mm just does not make as big a hole nor will it penetrate as far. Both of those things make a difference.
 
The 9mm is not as powerful as the 357 obviously and I agree that probably would have blasted his heart to bits. However, I am not sure the 40 would necessarity preform much better than the 9mm and what if it did the same thing. Im sorry I just dont thing the 40 is what people think. No doubt it a potent round but a marginal difference to a 9mm. The 45ACP is way better, imo, and call do all the 40 can and better.
 
The 1985 Miami shootout radically changed law enforcement in America.

I'm not sure why the 9mm got blasted whereas the 38 spl didn't but the end result was the same - we saw an exodus away from both guns / rounds in the LE community.

Also saw the switch away from revolvers to autos. They could have simply mandated that officers move from the 38spl 158+P to a .357 load. They could have gone to the .44 magnum which would have been a lot like the 10mm they ended up trying. But they also moved away from revolvers.

And a change in the way LEAs equip their officers. It seems like a "Raid" but so many times now when officers are going to enter a building with a warrant, they go with a platoon of fellow officers armed with carbines, shotguns, and everyone in full body armor.
 
He would have had a large hole in his heart as well. A 9mm just does not make as big a hole nor will it penetrate as far. Both of those things make a difference.
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It will not making as big of a hole or penetrate as much usually. A lot depends on which bullet you are using. In the Winchester Ranger T the difference in expaned diameter is .03" when compared to the 147gr 9mm. Plus the 9mm has better penetration compared to the .40S&W when shooting through denim. It also penetrates more through heavy clothing than the 180gr .40S&W. The 147gr 9mm also handles Wallboard better than either .40S&W load. That isn't conjecture it is based on Winchester's own published data that is publicly viewable.

You have to know which bullet you are using and what the most likely use is before you can determine which is better.

Tyler
The 45ACP is way better, imo, and call do all the 40 can and better.
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It makes a bigger hole everytime. However, you still have to know the bullet and loading you are shooting. The Winchester Ranger T in .45acp actually under penetrates compared to .40S&W and 147gr 9mm unless shooting through steel or plywood. It is equal to the 180gr S&W through auto glass, but expands less.

Again know the load and the likely use. The results are different for the Ranger Bonded. So, if using that load a different caliber may be more suitable.
 
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O I know I am not ignorant or wasnt knocking the .40 @ Mikenice. I actually have a gaining respect and want to get my 1st plastic gun in .40 a G23 because of a dream; Im a 1911 and steel guy but it called to me in my dream :). I also really want a Beretta INOX 96FS in .40 1st because I love the Inox and want a .40 because I own none. I agree some 9's and 40's could outperform a 45ACP. I was just stating in my opinion I prefer the 45 every time ove the 9/40 because of its marginal advantage. I also like how I can load light and fast or heavy and slow. They have 255gr. Buffalo Bore 45ACP rounds which are devistating. However, I agree the .40 is also an awesome round and I wouldnt hesitat to use it. I would probably choose that or the 9mm in certain situations thinking beforehand. Will it be crowded, will I need more rounds? Anyway that my post just wanted to let you know I do like the .40 Im not a basher ;).
 
THIS POST IS DOING WELL IT MUST LIVE ON. Lets spin it to a .40 discussion. I really like this thread and want it to keep going :D. I know there are a lot of super intellegent people on here because I have spoken to many of them so Id like to hear from you :).
 
going back to the FBI fatalities vis shootouts metioned way above...I never knew Purvis and Hoover had issues? I knew Hoover wore him in the ground to get Baby Face Nelson and mainly Dillinger but I didn't know the last part because I thought all was well after Dillinger went by-by.

Baby Face Nelson's firefight has always fascinated me as well as the lodge "raid" before baby's firefight(I also watched the rooftop Waco shootings live when that one guy - FBI Agent - barely got down while his buddies were dead or dying).

One of the two FBI Agents that killed Baby Face did it on his first, well-placed shot which was a fatal shot to the abdomen I believe. Of course Baby Face dispatched both the agents by approaching them and engaging in a firefight instead of running like most criminals(literally left a parked car instead of driving away and decided that these guys weren't going to live past that day). The agent killed him with the first shot, but both agents - who contuinued firing - were dead before Baby Face who actually was able to escape the scene.
 
@ Younggunz4life-- (Hoover was ****** Purvis got all the press for the Dillenger Killer basically)

I am interested in the Dillinger era of Robber as well especially Nelson. Why Nelson because he was a character and actually went after the agents. :eek: Did you know he was quite the competent gunsmith in real life and coverted a 1911 to full auto in 38super with a extra mag welded on. So his gun held about 21 rounds full auto. The gun had the Thompson foregrip and compensator look it up its cool. It is briefly used by Nelson in Public Enimies when he gets that agent in the car. He gave it to Dillinger as a token of their friendship after a while and it was found in his aresnal.

The problem with Nelson was he spelled trouble. He went after every Federal agent he spotted and also shot a motorcycle policmen during a Dillinger heist 4 times with a Thompson (he survived but critical) in the chest.

Finally one day it came to the shootout you were talking about. One I find very impressive as well. Nelson with a buddy and his wife when he simutaneously spotted 2 Agent as they spotted him. After a series of turns Nelson was pursuing the Agents. The passenger Agent took out his 38 super 1911 and fired at the car. All of a sudded Nelson car started to slow and stop, turns out a 38 super penetrated the radiation putting his car out of comission. While this was happening two other agents were on his tail because they saw the chase. Nelson was now public enemy #1 and they wanted him gone. The ensuing firefight was witnessed by at least 30 people and they all gave similar reports. Nelsons car was off the road and the driver side facing the agents car whos front was facing Nelsons. They were about 30yds. apart. Nelson was struck early on in the abdomen by a 45ACP which was the fatal wound. As he was fighting and got hit he said, "Im done for" and he told his wife to run for the tree line which she did. Then he sat on the runner board a couple seconds with his .351 winchester in hand. He had magazine for that welded together to so he had about 20 to 30 rounds at a time. Plus extras. His buddy kept firing the Thompsons at the agents when people said Nelson went beserk and said "Im tired this shooting back and forth sh**." He reportedly moved around the front of his car and fired the Win .351 so fast witnesses thought it was the Thompson. He was hit in the legs with buckshot but got up immediatley after hitting the ground. He hit one of the agents in the head twice and the other multiple times in the chest killing them both. Nelson was hit a total of 9 times and his friends drove him to a hotel and died by the side of his wife. By his personality Im sure he didnt even mind.

The rooftop of Waco is NUTS!! That FED is trying to pull back and you can actually see a couple rounds hitting his vest and him falling on the roof desperatley trying to escape. Anyway thanks for that interesting topic hope you enjoy what I have read from books about it. :)
 
YES, the Fed on the roof sort of 'takes cover' if you can call it that and quickly realizes that he better get off the roof because he has no chance otherwise. I used to wonder at the time what kind of memories or nightmares he might've suffered remembering the conversation about who would take the lead, the rear, and so-on before the shooting. He was lucky to survive. I am not sure what round was being shot at him, but they were leaving some pretty big holes. They were caught in a really bad ambush. I was only a teen, but I had a feeling the whole thing was gonna end bad after that(all in all it would've ended bad if that had been the end of it which obviously it wasn't).

PS- I have also wondered if the shot that got Baby Face was luck, but there is no way to know.
 
from what I understand people like Baby Face helped lead to the end of the "romance" w/bank robbers like Dillinger stealing from the evil banks who were hurting people during the depression. He enjoyed his role a little too much and people frowned upon the fact that he had no problem killing fathers, husbands, etc with such disregard. I am not saying that is the way it was, but like you said, baby was sort of trouble. I think he resented the fact Dillinger was getting fame on his bankjobs too.

I did also see a historical adaptation of Baby Face, and it claimed that the Mob used people like Baby Face as examples and reasons why to stay out of the limelight and on the 'down-low' to stay under the radar more.
 
They said he stepped out with the .351 Winchster (Power of like a 357 magh out of a semi-auto rifle.) which was his favorite gun with his welded mags. The shot just happened to hit him right then and he knew he was in trouble. He analyzed it a second and told his wife to run. I think it was more luck 60-90ft. is pretty far. His second was the Tommy of course. Alot of them used 1911's in 38super too because it would defeat the old vests. Either way Baby Face is the most entertaining criminal much more than Dillinger. Baby face way a bad mofo :cool:.

--- The Fed you can see massive incoming rounds hitting the window frame coming through at him and even hittin him. He pulls back quick and kind of falls scrambling away. He was ok it seems but needed some fresh boxer's :eek:. They were caught in an ambush to bad that idiot Korish didnt let them go and they burned :mad:. Someone put one in his head during the ordeal, GAME OVER. I would turn on him like "Um whatever we were trying to right we are not." Anyway good stuff keep it coming :D.
 
If I may be permitted a brief aside, can anyone post pics of Platt and Matix? I've never been able to find any, but am still very curious to see what these two looked like.
 
The reason the .38 got off is because it was on the way out anyway. There was a general change over from wheel guns to semi auto. Also the .38 is an easy fix. Use .357 ammo when your gun allows it.
 
@ Single Six--- Get the book Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight. This is by W. French Anderson, M.D. They have AWESOME pics and great info on this shootout. It is truly a great read and you would be pleased with it. I have read it cover to cover twice and find myself flipping through it often, it is actually to the left of my bookshelf. My 1911 is on the right :D. Im in the middle typing away.

I can post pics, I will get the stuff I need for it I just dont have it right now. Most of my $$ goes to to firearms. But, I will give you a rough description and what it says their weight and height was.
Matix:
Age:34 Height: 5' 11" Weight 180lbs Thinning reddish brown hair, dont know length, and with a handlebar mustache. What I can describe fromt he book is he looks like he belongs in the old west Almost. He definitley could be an intimidating guy if you can see past all the holes in his face. I remember John Hanlon who was shot in the hand and groin by Platt said during the chase he specifically remembers Matix. He said he looks like a man on a mission and didnt look particularly concerned with the FBI. He had a giant handlebar mustache that made him look even more intimidating.
Platt:
Age: 32 Height: 5' 10" Weight 210lbs Dark Brown Hair about 4" long and a mustache but a more trimmed one. What I can describe about platt is he appears like a fairly normal looking guy. However, by the photos if he wanted to it looks like he could be pretty intimidating looking. I think it was McNiell or Manuzzi who saw Platt just staring at him as they went by he was rocking a mag into the Mini 14. He looked like he could be more regular most of the time but then turn into a psycho looking guy in a second. Matix looked intimidating because of the mustache, Platt looked intimidating because he was Platt he looks intense and serious. The FBI didnt realize he was a Terminator :eek: absurd.
Seriously though, BUY the BOOK, you will love it. It will show and tell you alot about this. :D I hope this was kind of interesting.
 
Orrantia, McNeil and Risner could have used the easy fix available to them - fire .357 instead of 38spl +P out of their .357 revolvers. Although for Risner - his primary weapon was his S&W 459 semi-auto.

McNeil took Matix out of the fight with 38spl rounds. Matix didn't fire any shots after he was shot be McNeil. So in that sense - it didn't make a difference what caliber bullet McNeil was shooting through his revolver. What made the difference there is that he had to disengage in order to reload, he wasn't able to put shots on target while he was reloading his revolver and he got hit with return fire.

With Mireles you can make an argument that it didn't matter because he ended it with 38spl rounds, so obviously 38spl was good enough in final moments of the whole thing.

Risner initially was firing 9mm from his 459. It's not clear if Risner or Orriantia hit Platt, causing him to drop his .357 magnum. It makes sense to me that Risner fired this shot, I know that both Risner and Orrantia were fring at him but the next shot - the fith wound that Platt incurred was definately from Risner.

The shot that either Orrantia or Risner made on Platt that fractured his radius bone and exited the forearm, causing Platt to drop his revolver - either Orrantia made the shot and it wouldn't have made a difference if it had been .357 magnum or not since it was a shot to arm that exited out the forearm, or it was Risner - who was shooting 9mm at the time. Either way I don't think a .357 magnum round would have made a difference.

The next gunshot wound to Platt was IMO the only time in the shootout where an argument can be made that .357 would have made a difference over 38spl.

The next hit on Platt was made by Risner who was probably firing his 38spl at this point. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound channel may have been very different with a .357 magnum. It may have shattered his shoulder blade, although who's to say? A .357 mag bullet may have simply exited below the shoulder - I don't know.

My general thought here though is, if you look at each time the BGs got hit with a 38spl and think how it would have been different if it had been a .357 magnum - in all cases but one, I don't beleive it would have made a difference.
 
Tyler: Very interesting, thank you very much, and also, thanks for the heads-up. I'll see if I can't go about locating it that book. Meanwhile, what was your opinion on Ayoob's coverage on this in his American Handgunner column?
 
@ CountZER0-- I agree completley with everything you said. THe 357 only would have made a difference on the 1st Platt hit. The hit to Platts forearm was a 9mm by Risner I believe you are correct. The 9mm would have done the same as the 38 had it been in Mireles hand maybe better. I agree wholeheartedly that the agents should have been allowed to carry 158gr. 357 JSP/ JHP rounds that did not super penetrate. However, a .357 would have been an easy fix.

@Singlesix--- No problem I am glad you found the post interesting. I hope you like the book. Honestly, I havent really read Ayoobs comment but would like too. I been meaning to but wanted a link for free of all of them. Take care.
 
+1 on the Podcast Interview

That was a great addition to this story! Thanks for posting it.

"I tell the boys that if someone takes a shot at 'em, kill em. Because boy does it make you feel a hell of a lot better!" - John Hanlon, Retired FBI Special Agent
 
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