The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

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Thats an awesome writeup and provides a bunch of excellent points. I always believed in having a lot of ammo on me. I dont care if the FBI frowned upon it or not they would be able to see 6 speed loaders in my pockets and there would be at least 2 more + my guns load ;).
 
Complacency

I don't recall seeing this word in this thread but in essence, it's what made the shootout go south. The FBI was on a stakeout or surveillance and each of them subconsciously thought that it would never happen to them.

The FBI has been in many shootouts and approximately 50 agents have been killed in the line of duty since its inception. You'll recall that at one time, people signed on to the FBI mainly to enhance their resumes. They had no thought of staying there. Also, the agency favored guys with accounting and law degrees--Harvey Milktoast types largely without a kill-or-be-killed mentality. You'll also recall that Hoover was so envious of S/A Melvin Purvis, the guy would got Dillinger, that Hoover quite literally drove that fine agent to ultimately committ suicide. Such was the roots of the FBI.

I was the senior firearms instructor for a federal law enforcement agency. We had 10% buffs, 10% bolos and a bunch of agents in the middle who never once came to me for their allotment of free practice ammo. Early on, we had guys go on raids with revolvers tucked in their waistband, without holsters. We had guys on operations without any spare ammunition and with unloaded guns. But before that, The Manhattan office had but one revolver kept in the SAC's safe. If he deemed it necessary, he issued the revolver to an agent with one round of ammunition. Guys, I'm not making this up. It wasn't until the early 1960s, just before I got there, that each agent was issued his own revolver. We even had a few managers that warned us to never shoot anyone for fear of public embarrassment and the resulting paperwork.

I'm glad to report that a core of dedicated firearms instructors, gradually transformed the agency into a decent tactical force though it took many years and the retirements of the agency brass who were largely prohibition era accountants. Had our agency attempted the Platt/Mattix bust in 1986, they would have completely wiped us out. The agency now has 12 gauge semi-autos and both the president and pope doesn't have to sign off on their deployment. They also carry .40 cal. Glocks.
 
I was a 'Local Cop' assigned to direct an FBI surveillance van around the area while 'we' worked a kidnapping. I got to talking guns with the Agent/Driver. He showed me that he didn't have a gun on him but had one in a door pocket in the van. His plan was to come back and get the gun if he needed it. It was a J Frame S&W of some type, I don't remember which one?
I've been involved with the FBI just 4 times. Most of'm looked way down their noses at us because we were just street cops. Only that one driver was friendly. Most couldn't find their way to the toilet without a map.
 
Reinforcing what Shotgun 693 said, there was some elitism in the FBI ranks. Regrettably, in the area of gambling, narcotics, organized crime, and prostitution, there were a very small percentage of police officers, primarily with the larger departments, who had allowed easy money to corrupt them (see the Knapp Commission Reports). Thus, on many operations, you could not coordinate with the local police force unless you enjoyed raiding vacant sites. To be sure, the corruption occasionally extended into federal ranks. It doesn't mean the feds were cleaner than the locals, it means the locals were closer to the action and more streetwise. As a result, a level of animosity sometimes existed between federal and local law enforcement because the locals expected to be notified of an operation in their own back yard. Also, the FBI had a reputation for not sharing investigative finding with other agencies. You'll recall that this lack of agency cooperation prevented us from connecting the dots regarding 9/11.

Before anyone breaks out his flame thrower, remember, I said a very small percentage, not all of them.
 
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Wow, those were very interesting reads and informative. Any more info you have I am glad to hear :). Some of what you said sounds absolutley rediculous like issuing a revolver with 1 shot.
 
If I was in law enforcement I would carry a good amount of ammo. A good round, no 9mm. 2 guns at least.

357 revolver for back up, 20 rounds spare min, on stripper clips lay flat in a pouch.


1. Never assume that one shot will be enough.
2. Never assume the sight of a gun will ensure compliance.
3. The human body is an amazing machine with amazing limits.
Click to expand...

Thank you. People think 1 magazine is enough. There is jams and what knot. The worst thing in a gun fight is to run out of ammo. You want to have more ammo than your attacker(s)
 
I haven't read the entire thread - but on this last page at least I haven't seen any points made about wearing a protective vest.

It seems common sense now that a task force patrolling, doing a stakeout or rolling stake out would be wearing bullet resistant clothing.

When I look at the equipment that was stored in the trunks of cars, I ask myself - in what scenario where they expecting to deploy that stuff?

I try to figure out what assumptions they must have made that would cause them to decide not to wear the vests.

They thought Platt & Matix would surrender?

They thought the suspects could be killed easily with the amout of firepower they thought they cumulatively possesed ?

They thought there would be a situation where the suspects would be "holed up" in some location and the agents could surround them and they would have time to don vests?

They didn't really think that they'd come across Platt & Matix that day?

If you start with the thought that they were going after criminals that were armed and dangerous with the intent to confront them - capture or kill them that day - their actions only make sense to me if there some underylying assumptions like I've listed. (maybe that phrase "armed and dangerous" became cliché for them?)

Some of the people have listed changes to the way we think about situations which I also think is critical - like the thought that "SOONER OR LATTER THE WORST POSSIBLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES WILL OCCUR"

No one ever created a decision tree, forecasting or worst case analysis.

Even an unsophisticated analysis would have turned up a possibility that Platt & Matirx might initiate a shootout - that would have been enough to put those vests on before starting their engines that morning.
 
Count, I asked a couple of friends, that are long time leos, about that. According to them in 1986 ballistic vests were still scoffed at by many cops. They thought it was a sign of weakness or fear to wear one. Other cops just didn't believe they would work as well as advertised.

Another issue was the size. They were bulkier than modern designs. So, many detectives and plain clothes officers skipped on them. The detectives did it because the vest was "unnecessary" in their lower risk position. Plain clothes officers skipped because they were obvious and blew your cover quickly.

That is what I have been told. So, it only reflects a limitted group of experiences.
 
Vests

As I recall, bullet resistant vest use was in its infancy at the time. My agency was not issued vests until the late 80s. I'm not sure exactly what kind of ammunition Platt used in his mini-14 but if it was military ball, it would have defeated a personal vest. The feds would have needed bunker suits to stop ball ammo. Second-guessing the agents on that fateful day, body armor was very uncomfortable to wear in New York weather. It would have been a horror in Florida weather.
 
I agree that back then they were bulky and uncomfortable.

I'm just saying that there had to be an assumption behind the decision not to wear them - I'm guessing that they were thinking that it was improbable that they'd actually encounter Platt & Matix. They weighed what in their mind hey thought the probability of encountering them against the extreme discomfort of wearing the things and decided to forego wearing them.

For me personally, I think it emphasizes checking assumptions and thinking decisions forward.

Sometimes even if you don't think decisions forward or follow some type of logarithmic analysis or decision tree or something, just checking decisions to see if they are logically consistent.

Does it make sense for everyone to load up in vehicles and go chasing bad guys if some of your other decisions indicate that you don't think you're actually going to encounter them?
 
IIRC, they were the surveillance team, and hadn't gone out that day expecting a confrontation.... But then they felt they should initiate one.

In any case, the regular vests of the era would not necessarily stop .44 magnum, and would not stop any rifle round, to include 5.56.
 
I wore a vest in those days, they weren't terribly bulky but they didn't fit as well as today's vests. They also weren't as effective as today's vests but I wore mine most every time I wore a uniform.


I try to figure out what assumptions they must have made that would cause them to decide not to wear the vests.

They thought Platt & Matix would surrender?...COuntZerO

That's my impression. They thought if they presented a show of force and yelled "FBI, you're under arrest!" that it would all be over and they could start the paperwork. This seems silly now but things were different back then.
 
Good posts guys especially @Ciubtzeros you made a lot of good points about the agents. Yes the vests may have been bulky but if they were looking for these guys they should of had them on. They were frowned upon like a wuss, I understand the thought process but its stupid. Any time I can have any vest Id wear it even if the 223 went through maybe Ill get lucky and it will upset the round.


GUNS AND AMMO--- Here's a list for fun.
Platt's --- @federali In his Ruger Mini 14 he was firing 55gr. FMJ I am not sure what brand, at least 42 rounds fired. S&W 586 357 Mag 3 rounds fired.
Matix--- 1 shot of #6 shot ( never got that ) out of his S&W 3000 12G fired hitting a fender. He had a Dan Wesson 357 Platt took at some point and fired 3 rounds. So Platt probably fired a good 48 rounds total.
Agents: Assorted .38 Special +p out of chief specials and a couple model 19's I think. The Semi's were S&W 459 9mm's kind of like an old blue 5906 with WIN 115gr. +p Silvertips.
00 Buck fired one handed by a Remington 870 12G
Verified shots fired by suspects: 49
Verified shots fired by FBI: 70
Verified total shots in firefight: 119
Probable total number of shots fired: >130
That is info straight from my Dr. Anderson book on the firefight. Im really into this shootout in case you cant tell and studied the crap out of it.


You guys are right its just poor planning and a culmination of mishaps at a horrible time. Plus running into a Platt didnt help the guy was like the Terminator, and very bad. Matix was tough too and somehow got to the getaway car with gunshots in his face. Platt was devistating with 3 hits to his right arm he was still operating the Mini 14. It took 12 rounds to finally stop him that just amazes me. 6 for Matix too, I think? These guys were tough. RIP Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan both of you scored a critical hit.
Grogan: Even though nearly blind without his glasses he fired at Matix's muzzle flash and hit his right arm cause Matix to recoil back and check the would and then McNeill drilled him with 2 good shots incapacitating him partially.

Dove: When Platt was leaving the Monte Carlo he hit him in the right arm with the 9mm Silvertip that passed length wise up his arm. It severed the brachial artery and exited near the armpit, tumbling, it entered his chest. It penetrated between the 5 & 6 rib and burrowed its way 1 inch from his heart but still crushing his pulmonary arteries. This is the round that was fatal to Platt he was found with 1.3 Liters of Blood in his right lung area. :eek:
Sorry for the ramble :)
 
the 9mm Silvertip that passed length wise up his arm...severed the brachial artery and exited near the armpit, tumbling...entered his chest...penetrated between the 5 & 6 rib and burrowed its way 1 inch from his heart but still crushing his pulmonary arteries.
Click to expand...

Taken by itself, the above is a rather remarkable performance for a handgun cartridge. Any handgun cartridge. I really don't see how the FBI had a problem with it, except for a perceived necessity to shift blame from the agency to a bullet.
 
^ I agree.

The Silvertip inflicted a fatal wound. Is it the Silvertip's fault he didn't die immediately?

It wasn't a frontal shot.

I guess because it didn't travel an addition 1.25" inches the round is a goat.
 
It also seemed to me like the 9mm got blasted afterwards and the 38 spl got off relatively unscathed.

It's like when me & my brother would get in trouble - my Dad would forget that there were two of us... I'd catch hell and it was like my brother wasn't even there.

McNeill, Orrantia and Hanlon were all firing 38 +P if IIRC.

Maybe the 38 spl was let off the hook because it was used by Mireles to end the shootout.
 
I should go get the book - the one by Anderson, not Ayoob.


I've always wondered if McNeill, Orrantia and Hanlon were trained on, or were proficient with the S&W M459.
 
I would sign a contract with God today if He could guarantee me the exact same hit Jerry Dove got, should I ever have to shoot someone. The average criminal shmuck is likely to give it up at that point.
 
@ Secret agent man--- I complelety agree with you 100%. The shot was from behind Doves passenger side door at a distance of approximatley 25ft. Under high stress that is a pretty darn good shot with a pistol. I also agree the round performed very well and the FBI scape goated it. They didnt take into effect it traveled a long distance through him and still almost got the ticker.
The 38 Special recieved no backlash yet Matix was shot in the face mutiple times with a 38 and was still operational. Out of the fight, out for a while, but he became operational. I also agree most criminals would go :eek: from a shot like this when they saw the faucet of blood coming from THEM.

@Countzero-----I Highly recommend getting the book by Dr. Anderson, M.D called Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight To be quite honest it is one of the best books I have ever read and find myself flipping through it often. Trust me once you read it and see the crime scene photos you will be impressed. I believe it will change your view of this and shootouts in general. When you see Grogan and Doves car where Platt walked along side and leaned against :eek:. There is so much blood on the car you wonder how anyone could stand much less be fighting capable. The book said blood was probably actively spurting out of his body the entire time. The crime scene photos do validate that. He shows Platt and Matix's wounds at the medical examiners it it intersting to see them. When you see Platt's you will really how that man did what he did, they are just so devistating. As to your question about Hanlon, Orrantia, and McNeill being qualified with the S&W 459 was never mentioned in the book. However, I think it would have been a heck of a lot better if those 3 had them as well. A lot of 9mm's would be flying. Grogan and Dove were SWAT qualified and authorized to carry the 459. I am pretty sure Risner was as well.
FBI:
McNeill-- 357 Magnum 2 inch barrel M19 6 round fired (38+p)
Mireles--12G 870 5 rounds of 2 3/4 inch 00Buck fired. 357 Revoler (I think Model 13HB) 6 rounds fired (38+P)
Grogan: S&W459 9 rounds fired
Dove: S&W459 20 rounds fired
Risner: S&W459 Fired between 13-28 rounds most likely closer to the latter as he was said to have fired alot. Souvenir hunters took some cases. He fired 1 round from a Model 36 (I think of 38+p)
Orrantia: 357 Magnum 4 inch barrel (not sure what) fired 12 rounds of (.38+p)
BAD GUYS:
Platt: Ruger Mini 14 at least 42 rounds fired, 357 S&W 586 6 inch 3 shots fired, and took Matix's Dan Wesson 357 6 inch and fired 3 rounds late in the gunfight.
Matix: S&W Model 3000 12G 1 round fired of #6 shot. He never really was in the fight. It was all Platt except for the driving.

Sorry for the ramble post Im just wicked interested in this and figured Id spread exact knowledge from a text.
 
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