The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

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Exactly, the situation was approached a bit too lax for the way they knew these guys could respond. In my opinion the 9mm's did a decent job even for the underpenetrating Silvertips they used. The 1st hit did sever the brachial artery pass through the right arm, enter btw 5 & 6th rib collape the lung and hit pulmonary arteries. It stopped an inch shy of his heart, yes. Everyone focuses on how it missed the heart by an inch. What if he didnt get hit by that round, the fight could have been a lot worse since Im guessing that round did slow him down a bit and messed up his ability to hold his rifle very well. An uninjured Platt escaping from the Car, or minorly injured, is a scary thought. More agents may have died. There should have been at least 1 .223 in each FBI car readily available. I dont like the stigma attached to the 9mm because of this though, it is a more than adequate round, imo.
 
Carrying 9mm certainly did not help things. More damage to a body is just that. In combat the more damage the better. Certainly a long gun would have been best but when you have to go with what you have take all you can. 9mm was not much. a bigger hole is always better
 
The 'tactical lesson' I learned from the 'shootout'...

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And...

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And...

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Have a nice day...
:cool:
 
My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?
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Bite your tongue. I shoot on public land, mostly, and am often alone and most always in posession of multiple guns--as are many shooters. Doesn't happen often, but I've have some folks come by and look me over that alerted my survival instincts. That's why I take an 870 or Mini-14 when I'm alone and isolated all by my lonesome.

Does that make sense to you, now?
 
I've also seen some questionable looking types at state-owned but unmanned public ranges in Florida, particularly in the Ocala National Forest.

Look at it another way... if I bring multiple firearms for a shooting session, I literally have thousands of dollars in very liquid and portable assets sitting there, in plain sight. People get robbed every day, over less.
 
Very true it always pays to be wary. I subscribe to the bigger is better idea myself and prefer the 45ACP. However, I still believe the 9mm is an adequate SD round and like it. The should of had the long guns out and throwing lead.

@TraderJack-- I like the 10MM, dont own one yet but plan on getting a Delta Elite in the future. I always liked the 10MM more than the 40S&W. Plus I prefer the 1911 platform and the round goes perfectly with it. The 10MM is cool round and I cant wait to own one. It is potent like a magnum round but is not in a massive semi auto like the Desert Eagle, for example.
 
Look at it another way... if I bring multiple firearms for a shooting session, I literally have thousands of dollars in very liquid and portable assets sitting there, in plain sight. People get robbed every day, over less.
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Here in Reno, two gun stores were robbed by driving a car through a window and looting the counter. They all have posts for protection now, but the value of guns to criminals is obvious.

No, there hasn't been any kind of rash of incidents in my neck of the woods (N. Nev.), and robbing armed people obviously has it's hazards. But you never know. There are folks out there who'd take you down.

Being alone with a number of guns is a lot like carrying large somes of money. While shooting an elk can bring a predator like a Grizzly in some places, shooting alone on public land can bring everything from BLM LE to......well, you get the point.
 
Situational Awarness should go everywhere you go. This should not change due to the fact your are out shooting. If you are alone you should always be careful of your surroundings, I think most already know this. Yes the chances that this may happen in an ambush fashion like 1986 are small. However, that doesn't mean you shouldnt be prepared for it to happen, imo.
 
@TylerD45ACP... It might be difficult to locate a nice Delta... But Kimbers are still available... New.
My Eclipse rocks! I used to shoot bowling pin matches with it and it never failed to get 'ooooo's' and ahhhhhh's after 6 of the 10 pins were splintered beyond further use.
Take a good look at the Eclipse Custom II. I don't think you'll be disappointed...
 
Cool thanks for the post and reccomendation. I would prefer the Delta and if I can find a nice one I will grab that. However I will check into the Kimber as you suggested. The 10MM is just too cool to not have a 1911 chambered for it. I have a feeling once I get one its going to shoot right up to the top of the list with the 45ACP :D.
 
Bullet/agent perdormance

It should be noted that Platt took a round early in the fight from a distance of 47 yards, if memory serves me correctly. That round, a 9mm Win Silvertip, penetrated Platt's arm, entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart. Had that bullet penetrated just a bit more, the outcome would have been very different.

We lose sight of the fact that the essential elements to winning a gun battle, in order of importance are: mindset, judgment, tactics, marksmanship and firearm. Regrettably, and I hate to second guess LEOs, that two agents died and several more wounded is evidence enough the FBI was not prepared for this gunbattle. All the elements were lackingto varying degrees.

But, as the FBI is our nation's premier law enforcement agency, They studied and demanded better bullet performance and they got it. We all benefit from having available premium self defense bullets that didn't exist prior to 1986.
 
Platt would have been dead in short order but the 9mm just did not have the power to do the job. One in the heart and its lights out in short order. a .40 would have put a hole in his pump.
 
See thats where I think its possible they wouldnt have performed much differently. I too like bigger calibers 45ACP particularly. However, while I agree the .40 may have reached his heart I still dont think the 9mm is to blame. Too many factors go into a gunfight to say with any certainty about anything that could have done. A .40 could have ended up in the same place, though less likely.
 
I've read about this event over the years as well, read various analysis and comments from those who were there and those who were not.

The main lesson I take from it, as I take from most accounts of similar events, is that taking decisive, aggressive action is a key component to successful outcomes. That points to the importance of training, moreso than caliber or platform selection.

Regarding the 10mm (contrary to what I just said? haha), TylerD, I suggest checking out the Glock 20/29 before you invest in a 1911 pattern platform. The 29 is easier to carry... but consistent with above, the money you save means more practice ammo. If you're a .45 shooter it may take some time getting used to the snappy full-house 10mm and you won't want to shoot more than 100-150 rounds a day, depending on the size and strength of your hands.
 
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The real legacy that resulted from the FBI reaction to the fight is not so much a new caliber (though the .40S&W is what I use most), but better bullets.

The direct descendent of the FBI testing methodology which was created to evaluate bullets and cartridges is the bonded hollowpoint points such as the Speer Gold Dot, Win Ranger and Federal HST. These all perform so well that caliber is much less important than when comparing FMJ or HP that breaks up.

Likewise, besides the lack of planning and on the scene tactics, the cartridge failure (if any) was perhaps the Silvertip bullet used. It actually performed well for a lightweight hollowpoint meant to upset rapidly. A 147 gr HP might have had more penetration.

Hopefully the FBI response to a similar situation has improved as much as bullet technology. I suspect it has, without the fanfare of the ammo technology.
 
It was not the 9mm's fault
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It is up in the air whether or not the 10mm and subsequently the 40 caliber would have been developed in the wake of the Miami shootout had effective 147 grain hollowpoint 9mm ammunition had be available at the time.

Apparently the FBI was, up until some date, satisfied with the performance of the 158 grain +P LSWCHP revolver round. An acknowledged killer round if there ever was one.

The slightly lighter and slightly faster 9mm 147's marketed today probably accomplish about the same terminal results as the "FBI" load. The only improvement the FBI really needed was not ballistic, but the ability to shoot more rounds between reloads and easier reloading, both characteristics of semi autos.

This is some old hat info, true, but seemed like a good time to air it again with this thread.
 
Nice responses guys. I think the 147gr. may of had more penetration as well. The 115gr. Silvertip did upset quickly as you said and it had to pass through his right arm into and into his chest. The round was tumbling when it came out of his arm. I agree with the better bullet or possible heavier may have reached his heart. Those Silvertips just didnt do the job when it came to penetration. I just have always been fascinated with the refusal to die or stop fighting on either side of the fray. The agents were still fighting after taking .223's to the forearm or hand. I was particuarly fascinated by the amount of rounds Platt took basically refusing to die. He was a very bad man but it is an amazing display of what the human body can accomplish.

@ Booker t-- I agree with what you said about agressive action and training can produce more sucessful outcomes. Thanks for the reccomendation on the Glock 20/29. Recoil has never bothered me much and Im pretty sure I can get used to just about anything. Im going to get a 10MM sometime soon hopefully :).
 
a 9mm 147grn at 975fps vs a .40 at 1180 with a 155grn bullet. That is a HUGE difference. over 200fps and a heavier bullet. i think that would have reached Pratts heart. The LEO community is leaving the 9mm and for good reason.
 
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