The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

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An instructor I had at the SIG Academy, in discussing the Miami shootout said, in plain English, the FBI was outfought. Platt's survival instincts and desire to win was stronger than that of the agents. Also, Most accounts I've read have Platt doing all the shooting and Matix did not return fire.

The Miami shootout, along with the Newhall incident, in which four CHIPs died in a shootout in the parking lot of a diner, are still studied in police academies. The Newhall incident had a greater impact in changing police firearms training than did the FBI shootout.

Generally, whoever is firstist with the mostist will win. The FBI had shotguns in their trunks. Apparently, they were following FBI policy. So, when the shootout began, as already noted, it was a mini-14 against a five-shot Chief. Knowing they were after some dangerous dudes, they were not psychologically, tactically or physically prepared for the incident that unfolded.
 
Yea that is pretty much what seems to have happened. Platt seemed to be able to make himself completley oblivious to his injuries and fight on. Matix fired 1 shot the whole shootout out of his S&W M3000 12G with #6 shot. After that he never fired another shot.
 
There were several lessons that were important to me I took away from this event. I've looked at it for a long time, and I read the book and pretty much everything else I could find as well. YMMV here of course. Here goes...

Firearms are not necessarily death rays. Just because someone gets shot doesn't mean that person will stop, or die right there. Just because you get shot doesn't mean you will stop or die right there either. It is critical to stay in the fight, or get back in the fight, if things don't go your way. Otherwise you might very well die needlessly right there. You stop when the fight is over and not before. Whatever else happens, don't let your people down.

Cars can be surprisingly good cover in some cases. Cover is a really good thing. About half of a gunfight is the process of not getting shot. That's not something you want to forget.

It's not enough to get peripheral hits, nor is it good enough to get torso hits that do not drive deep enough and/or fail to intersect sufficiently critical anatomical structures to be incapacitating. Placement counts a lot, but placement without sufficient penetration won't get it done. The human target is 3D. It's like a covey of quail on the rise, there's a lot more air than bird and you have to pick one bird out of the uproar and shoot it. There is no magic caliber or magic bullet that will fix both placement problems and penetration problems.

Gunfights are what they are, not what you had planned for them to be or thought they would be. Outgunned and outnumbered does not necessarily mean outfought. When it starts, it's all on until it's all over.

It's better to out-think your opponent in the first place, if opportunity presents itself, than to have to out-fight him later.

You can do everything right and still get killed. You can do a lot of things wrong and still survive. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but it happens that way anyway.

lpl
 
I think if they definately knew they were going to encounter Platt & Matix that day they would have been wearing vests, there would have been more shotguns, more carbines and less 38 revolvers.

Another thing that stood out to me is how many times people were either shot in the hand, the arm or their weapons were hit. In each case the hits changed the dynamics of the firefight in some way.
 
The lesson I take away from this...

NWPilgrim:
I think one thing that probably surprised everyone is the level of practice the BGs had with firearms. We often think of thugs as not practicing much with guns, that they will just blast away. But I believe the BGs actually went to gravel pits often and shot a lot of ammo (as well as stealing cars and killing gun owners)
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This is the part of the story that stood out to me, and it has nothing to do with calibers, tactics etc. TWICE these BGs murdered ordinary guys who were practicing at informal gun ranges -- rock pits -- and stole their guns and cars.

I doubt that very many of us here will ever be in a gunfight; certainly not -- God forbid! -- the kind of shootout the FBI agents faced. But probably a great many of us have shot or thought about shooting at an unofficial, de facto range like an old rock quarry. I'll bet a number of members reading this right now know of such a place, and might even go there regularly to practice. Over the years, I've been to any number of such places.

The last thing we'd ever imagine would be to be ambushed in such a place by a fellow shooter. But this story makes it clear how much of a sitting duck one can be when alone in such a place.

In light of this story, I'm going to re-think going to such places,
and if I go at all, I'll make sure that I'm not alone and that my companions are aware of what could possibly go down when other folks show up there.

Even better, I'll just restrict my practice shooting to formal, administered public or private shooting ranges.
 
But probably a great many of us have shot or thought about shooting at an unofficial, de facto range like an old rock quarry. I'll bet a number of members reading this right now know of such a place, and might even go there regularly to practice. Over the years, I've been to any number of such places.

The last thing we'd ever imagine would be to be ambushed in such a place by a fellow shooter. But this story makes it clear how much of a sitting duck one can be when alone in such a place.

In light of this story, I'm going to re-think going to such places,
and if I go at all, I'll make sure that I'm not alone and that my companions are aware of what could possibly go down when other folks show up there.
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Exactly what I have done since I first read this story many years ago. I do go to a rock pit often for informal shooting/plinking since the local clubs have restrictions on types of targets and only at set ranges and not easy to shoot from various positions.

When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible. Besides the G23 I also keep a rifle an AR15 or Garand loaded and handy, and carry it with me when I go down range to set/check targets. If a friend is along I make sure they understand to keep an eye out for approaching vehicles when I am shooting.

Most vehicles that come along either just drive on by or slow down to chat briefly, or get out and piicl up some brass, or start setting up on the other side of the pit.

A few times cars/trucks have come along that seem hinky. They park off to the side and do not approach to chat or do anything to indicate they plan to shoot. In a remote area with no other destinations in the area that is odd. I make sure they see I am keeping an eye on them and that I am armed with at least one pistol and on rifle (I'm usually shooting at least one other pistol and rifle as well). Sometimes they stay there for quite some time. I don;t think that is natural. If it were me I would leave the shooter alone and have his fun, or I would go over to chat. I would not lurk off to the side and say nothing but watch for half an hour. If I am alone I may just pack up and head out. If the car leaves I wait and listen to make sure they keep going and not just stopping around the corner.

Most of the time it is just a great day of shooting, but I am grateful for having read about Platt and Matix for those few times people act weird while I am there. An ounce of prevention and awareness are worth a ton of "cure."
 
No plan survives the first contact, intact.
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Even though no plan survives the first action, having no plan is even worse, unless the actors are so thoroughly trained together they always are on the same plan and same page mentally. Doesn't sound like the FBI agents were that highly trained as a reaction team in this case.
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Two very good pieces of advice, lets try to combine them.

No plan survives the first contact, intact and those with no plan seldom survive first contact, intact.
 
Massad Ayoob did his usual excellent, highly-detailed analysis of this incident in his "The Ayoob Files" column in "American Handgunner" magazine. A collection of these articles {including that one} was gathered into a book by the same name; you can very likely get it on Amazon.com.
 
Remote target shooting

That Platt and Matix posed as ordinary target shooters in order to ambush and kill other target shooters for their guns and cars----this is not the first or last time it has happened. There was an incident, also in Florida along similar lines and there have been several cases of hunters targeted and killed by either madmen fugitives or eco-terrorists.

It's difficult to be so wary all the time. Some guy stops, he seems friendly, asks if he may take a few shots from his piece, offers to let you try his gun, then asks, or you offer to let him try yours, you turn your back for whatever reason and it's all over. As a few have said, perhaps it's best not to be alone at a remote shooting pit.
 
federali
That Platt and Matix posed as ordinary target shooters in order to ambush and kill other target shooters for their guns and cars----this is not the first or last time it has happened. There was an incident, also in Florida along similar lines and there have been several cases of hunters targeted and killed by either madmen fugitives or eco-terrorists.

It's difficult to be so wary all the time. Some guy stops, he seems friendly, asks if he may take a few shots from his piece, offers to let you try his gun, then asks, or you offer to let him try yours, you turn your back for whatever reason and it's all over. As a few have said, perhaps it's best not to be alone at a remote shooting pit.
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Right on! "NWPilgrim" describes being wary of those who strike him as "hinky", but it's more likely the ones who seem normal and stop to chat who will catch you unawares.

Jose Collazo, whose black Monte Carlo was stolen by the BGs as he was shooting at a rock pit, was left for dead but survived the attack. If he is still alive, it would be interesting to hear how Platt and Matix got the drop on him.
Or perhaps he and Emilio Briel, the rock pit shooter murdered by the pair in 1985, were shot with a rifle from a distance. It's tough to defend against a guy who drives up and, without any subterfuge, tries to pick you off with a rifle.
 
I realize it's happened, but if you seriously can't go shooting without worrying about getting ambushed and murdered, well, I guess I'd say you need more to worry about. I'd bet you're more likely to get struck by lightning from a clear blue sky.
 
I realize it's happened, but if you seriously can't go shooting without worrying about getting ambushed and murdered, well, I guess I'd say you need more to worry about. I'd bet you're more likely to get struck by lightning from a clear blue sky.
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On the contrary it is no different than any other time. You have to be aware of your surroundings, the proverbial Condition Yellow.

What I am saying is that at a gravel pit it is easy to let your guard down because you are armed and shooting. We need to be aware that just because we are target shooting does not mean that we no longer possible targets of someone else. If I am anywhere and another person starts behaving strangely and is focused on me then I am going to do something about it: leave, let him know I am watching him as well, or demonstrate that I with a group.

Just because you are alert to POTENTIAL dangers does not mean you are scared or anxious. When you are displaying something that others are willing to kill for (guns, gold, wads of cash, etc.) then it is prudent to be more cautious.
 
The last thing we'd ever imagine would be to be ambushed in such a place by a fellow shooter. But this story makes it clear how much of a sitting duck one can be when alone in such a place.
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Its hard to overcome the element of surprise. If someone wants you dead, you are likely dead. There is safety in numbers and if confronted alone by a stranger just make sure you suspect everyone.
 
Bottom line...

"Both of the BG’s sustained what should have been fight ending wounds in the initial exchange of gun fire; do to reasons that are still unknown, both were able to remain in the fight. I believe it’s’ important to note that autopsy reports of both BG.’s indicated that neither had either drugs or alcohol in their systems when they died."

As a police officer/firearms instructor/heavy reader I can say the following is100% true...

1. There are so many variables in individual human physiology
x2.There are so many variables in ballistic factors/performance
= The exact same persons and firearms could result in 100 different ends.
 
NWPilgrim said:
Just because you are alert to POTENTIAL dangers does not mean you are scared or anxious. When you are displaying something that others are willing to kill for (guns, gold, wads of cash, etc.) then it is prudent to be more cautious.
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Yes but "prudently cautious" and "don't go shooting without bringing a lookout in case someone wants to kill you" are two different things, the latter of which seems to be implied by your "don't go shooting alone in a remote spot" comment.

I simply can not imagine any of my friends not thinking me crazy if I said "Hey man, want to go shooting? One of us can shoot while the other keeps a lookout in case anyone sneaks up on us."

As I've said before, some dangers, though undeniably possible, are so unimaginably improbable as to be well beyond my need to be bothered by them.

I mean, if I'm going to be getting on my motorcycle on a regular basis and not being bothered by the fact that doing so is undeniably the most dangerous thing I'll do on any given day, what sort of justification would I have for worrying about something that has been documented to have happened once, maybe twice, EVER? On the flip side, if I'm going to be worried enough about dying in an event that is so astronomically unlikely that I would not go shooting in a remote place without bringing back-up, how would I justify the WILLFUL exposure to such a high-risk activity as riding a motorcycle or, frankly, driving a car for that matter.
 
Yes but "prudently cautious" and "don't go shooting without bringing a lookout in case someone wants to kill you" are two different things, the latter of which seems to be implied by your "don't go shooting alone in a remote spot" comment.
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You are contorting, or at best exaggerating, what I said, which was:
I do go to a rock pit often for informal shooting/plinking since the local clubs have restrictions on types of targets and only at set ranges and not easy to shoot from various positions.

When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible.
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How you inflate that to "Don't go shooting without a friend!" I don't know. Maybe you have some phobias you are projecting. I would say at best I can find someone available about one fourth of the times I go to the pit. I conduct my life as I want, while aware and prepared the best I can.
 
You also said:

NWPilgrim said:
When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible. Besides the G23 I also keep a rifle an AR15 or Garand loaded and handy, and carry it with me when I go down range to set/check targets. If a friend is along I make sure they understand to keep an eye out for approaching vehicles when I am shooting.
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So, you try to bring a friend and, when you do, you give them explicit instructions to be on the lookout for approaching vehicles.

My apologies. It's not that you WON'T go shooting without a lookout in case someone wants to kill you, you just TRY NOT TO.

I mean no offense. Really, I don't. What you call "prudently cautious", I might consider paranoia. You might consider me to be naive and unprepared. C'est la vie.

My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?

Or, let's say I take these precautions at the rock quarry but I smoke cigarettes. Is that logical? If I'm prepared for such incredibly rare events, why would I do something so commonly, undeniably fatal?

It makes me wonder about much more likely events and precautions which I, and I'm sure you, ignore. My car for example. It's FAR, far, far more likely that installing a roll cage and 5-point racing harness will someday save my life than will being "prudently cautious" at the shooting range. Such precautions aren't all that expensive either. No more than a nice rifle and scope, certainly no more than two. Why do we ignore such things and place such emphasis on things of such undeniable, astronomically lower probability?

It all comes down to our own interests. It really does. I don't have a roll cage and harness but I do carry a gun. Why? I want to carry a gun and I don't want a roll cage. That's all. I'd like to BELIEVE there's more to it, but there isn't. I will likely live the rest of my life without ever needing my gun, "prudent caution" or otherwise. When I die, it will likely be disease that kills me and if not, almost certainly in a motor vehicle accident but I will die still "convinced" that carrying my gun all those years was "prudent caution".

How does any of this relate to the OP? Simply this. It's lots of "fun" to analyze and conjecture about these events, just don't forget that we do it because we want to and, in all likelihood, none of it will ever matter a whit to any of us or anyone we know. We will mostly, by a large margin, die the same deaths as those around us who have no interest in terminal ballistics, no interest in firearms, do not carry one and wouldn't know "prudent caution" if it slapped them in the face.
 
My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?
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Using your argument why do you own a gun for SD, if you do at all? If you live in a decent neighborhood and mind your business the chance of you being attacked is very remote. Statistically, there is insignificant reason that you should need a gun. I have lived in a many areas, some nice some not so and have never needed to shoot my gun for SD.

You make good use of the anti-gun logic of why we should not be allowed to own guns. I prefer the Jeff Cooper mindset of being aware that a threat can happen anywhere and no one is so special they are free of danger. It may be a remote possibility, but I do not plan on letting that one in a million chance do me or my family harm.

You will probably go through your life with no problems and wonder why people think they need to be alert. Enjoy your preoccupations, but some poor sucker somewhere will suffer the consequences of adopting your mindset. It may not be you, but it could be you as easily as the next guy.

So tell me, since you criticize my mindset to be alert, even at a gravel pit when target shooting, do you have any guns handy for self defense at any time during the day? Do you ever go on alert or do you blithely wander through life not caring what goes on around you? No offense of course.
 
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