The April 11, 1986 FBI Miami SHOOTOUT

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NWPilgrim said:
So tell me, since you criticize my mindset to be alert, even at a gravel pit when target shooting, do you have any guns handy for self defense at any time during the day? Do you ever go on alert or do you blithely wander through life not caring what goes on around you? No offense of course.
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No offense taken.

If you'd read my post, you'd see that I said that I carry a gun. More specifically, I carry a gun almost every day and have since the day I got my permit. I also consider myself to be "prudently cautious".

You'd see, if you carefully read my previous post, that I in fact ask the very questions of myself that you are attempting to use against me.

What my "mindset" is, is clarity and honest self-evaluation. I am not in "condition white" and I not naive and vulnerable.

What I am is aware that what I do and what I carry likely matters not at all. Any fears that I have... about that car who stops and watches me, yes, I've had those fears, or the not so nice looking dude who strolls into my shop 3 minutes before closing when I have no orders.... are just that, fears. None have ever born themselves out and, likely, none of them ever will.

I prepare and equip for an event that is virtually certain to never occur. So do you. The difference, is that I don't try to convince people that I prepare because it's "worth" preparing for. I prepare because I want to.

The point being again, do you ever stop and consider the myriad of things for which you DON'T prepare, things that are FAR more likely to kill you, and wonder to yourself, why? Why do I carry a gun and worry about that car stopping when I DON'T worry about roll cages and safety harnesses?

See, I do ask those questions. That's the big difference between me and a lot of "gun people". The difference between me and the anti-gun people is not the question, but the answer. My answer is because I am free to do so as I please. Theirs, is not.

There is no more sense in not asking the question than there is in eliminating the freedoms of those who choose to answer it differently.
 
Or, let's say I take these precautions at the rock quarry but I smoke cigarettes. Is that logical? If I'm prepared for such incredibly rare events, why would I do something so commonly, undeniably fatal?
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People ask me why I smoke occasionally but carry a gun. It is the difference between making the choice about your life expectancy and letting someone else do it. If I accept my actions will kill me that is fine. I do not have to accept that someone else's actions will kill me. I can take measures to improve my odds

I go shooting by myself often on private land. It is secluded enough that it could be much like the rock quarry. I don't take back up. I don't have a dog in that fight either way. I was just giving a little perspective.

just don't forget that we do it because we want to and, in all likelihood, none of it will ever matter a whit to any of us or anyone we know.
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Hi, my name is Mike and I have used firearms on four occasions to protect my life and the life of others. My father also used handguns to protect his life and the lives of his family at least three times.

Some of us atract trouble. I know that half of my issues could have been avoided by not stopping for gas after midnight. Half of the events were broad day light and the criminals were acting based on percieved opportunity.

For some of us it does matter and we will need all the knowledge we can get. The bell curve has two sides and you can fall on either.
 
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Any fears that I have... about that car who stops and watches me, yes, I've had those fears, or the not so nice looking dude who strolls into my shop 3 minutes before closing when I have no orders.... are just that, fears.
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Which is exactly as I suggested. You are projecting your fears onto my actions and motives. You see, I am NOT afraid when I am being cautious. I take note of things that do not seem right and then take action to prevent them, or be ready to respond if they play out. I do not go around being afraid every time something hinky comes along. And I don't carry because I am afraid.

If you scare that easily then I can see how you would expect others to be in fear as well.

When I go hiking in the mountains I put a lot of preparation and planning in to avoid pitfalls and discomforts so I can spend more time enjoying what I am doing. If the weather starts looking suspicious, or the rock looks more slippery than usual or the river crossing deeper than normal then I am going to evaluate and respond to those atypical conditions as well. I am not in fear.

Same thing with being cautious at the gravel pit. I still go whenever I want to, but like hiking I take a buddy along if possible and I make sure we are on the same page as to what to expect and what to watch for. Seems pretty natural to me and I am surprised anyone would interpret this as being fearful or paranoid, unless of course they are often afraid themselves. I understand that.
 
Sounds like Hypocrisy.

I bet its just a big misunderstanding though. Both of you guys sound the same but you just don't realize it.
 
If you are alone and shooting in a remote area be careful. This goes without saying you never know what kind of animal or BG could creep up on you. Keep a look out and keep looking around. But, I believe If someone really wants to ambush you they probably will suprise you. Id say try to be as alert as possible so you wont get suprised, if you do youre probably dead.

Back to the shootout though. I developed a mindset from this shootout that
1) If I'm hit that doesnt necessarily mean Im going to die, but even if I am, I want to get the SOB who got me. I will continue fighting until I am unable because I know the body can and I want to live.
2) I do not expect BG's that I may have to ever engage in a SD shoot to drop from a couple hits. I am expecting that every adversary is going to be difficult to stop. If they arent thats great but I want to be prepared.
 
In my current job we use this shoot-out as both types of examples. For example, speed reloads and combat mindset. To bring a primary or a secondary to a real gunfight. Also if you notice the BG's had alot of stress innoculation prior to the incident, I am unsure if the FBI agents invovled were prior service or prior gun fight survivors?
 
That is true and a good point, kaylorinhi. I know Matix was in the Marines and Platt was in the Army Rangers, I think. Im not sure about the agents military background, I know at least one was a vietnam vet. However, it did seem that Platt/Matix were more innoculated to stress you said. They were ready to react with heavy violence at the drop of a hat. I think the agents underestimated the response their adversaries had to the felony stop .

I think its good you use this shootout at your job for examples. It provides a lot of information on how people can react in a shootout. How stress is a major factor; to have a combat mindset. Also, how adrenaline can keep you going even though you are technically dead.
 
I know Matix was in the Marines and Platt was in the Army Rangers

And this was in their advantage as the military, particularity the infantry, stresses much more aggressive, high-volume, assault-style fire than LE.
 
I thought about that too and agree. They would be more used to assault rifle fire than a typical agent. Thats probably why Platt just opened up so fast with the Mini 14, and because he was nuts. He was willing to use the rifle with total disregard for anyone. I think the agents did a decent job under the circumstances though. They were a bit behind from the start but ended up getting both BG's. Unfortunatley two agents lost their lives. I know at least 2 agents were swat though, 1 missing his glasses.
 
OT.....

It's FAR, far, far more likely that installing a roll cage and 5-point racing harness will someday save my life than will being "prudently cautious" at the shooting range.
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Not sure about the 5-point harness, but installing a roll cage may actually kill you: your car is designed to crumple and absorb energy.... stiffening may increase force on YOU ..... not only that, a roll cage complicates extrication proceedures by the FD, increasing time to get you out without further injury .... and time is not on your side if you have sustained serious trauma....

So anything you do has consequenses ...... don't go shooting where you can shoot from a holster (gravel pit) because youare afraid of Mattix and Platt II and you may not be able to clear leather when you NEED to, in time ....
 
With regards to shooting in the boonies (or even at uncontrolled public ranges out in the woods), I do prefer to bring a shooting buddy, for safety's sake.

Call me paranoid, but at a range that has no security or RO, I also keep a loaded gun on my person at all times. Doesn't mean I can't get shot in the back by a Platt or a Matix, in the extremely unlikely event that somebody of that ilk were to show up; does mean that I won't be in a situation where I am unarmed, and know that something bad is about to happen.
 
This has turned into an interesting discussion about shooting in the boonies alone. I agree this is a solid point because the shooters were ambushed by Matix and Platt. I think they came across as friendly to one of them at 1st time they shot them so people must be wary.

Somebody already mentioned this but how about all the gun hands or even just arms that were hit in the gunfight, think about it. Your gun hand is going to be infront of your COM so its got a good chance of getting hit. Platts right arm was riddled with bullets, Matix's right was hit, along with at least two agents being hit in the hand and one in the arm. Supposedly, Jerry Dove's Smith took a round and stopped working on him. Alot of rounds hit their opponents hand/arm. A lesson I learned from this was practice with both hands on every weapon. Yes I am less proficient with my left but wouldnt feel uncomfortable if forced to use it. I think this shootout provides a valuable lesson that you very well may have to use your off hand.
-- Also I wont go anywhere without a backup gun now. I just bought myself a little Seecamp .32 that I keep with me along with my primary CCW from now on. Its a little something extra should I need it and I do feel more comfortable with it.
 
Call me paranoid, but at a range that has no security or RO, I also keep a loaded gun on my person at all times. Doesn't mean I can't get shot in the back by a Platt or a Matix, in the extremely unlikely event that somebody of that ilk were to show up; does mean that I won't be in a situation where I am unarmed, and know that something bad is about to happen.
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Likewise MLeake. I guess i'm paranoid too.

Whenever I go to the range I always have another loaded gun on me concealed besides the gun(s) i'm shooting. This gun is for SD only and doesn't get used otherwise.

I don't know about anyone else here but I don't consider a shotgun, unless it's an AA-12 or something similar, to be on the same level as a .223 or .308 carbine-battle rifle.
 
Whenever I go to the range I always have another loaded gun on me concealed besides the gun(s) i'm shooting. This gun is for SD only and doesn't get used otherwise.
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I'm an RSO and I always pack heat whilst on duty.

I don't know about anyone else here but I don't consider a shotgun, unless it's an AA-12 or something similar, to be on the same level as a .223 or .308 carbine-battle rifle.
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They shouldn't be on the same level. The battle rifle has a wider range of effectiveness while the shotgun is more specialized to shorter ranges. Inside 45 yards and for me its a toss up. The shotgun gives quicker engagement and more room for errors. The rifle has more capacity and precision. Most folks forced to choose are better served with the rifle because of the capacity and longer effective range.
 
Does anyone think the 40S&W would have come about without the results of this shootout? Or do you think the shootout is the only thing that propelled the round into existence. I have often wondered what might have been different. Just going to throw that out there and see what people think?
 
I have not studied this shooting, I do remember it when it happend but I was in Germany at the time.
Here I read this Thread and think of what has been said about going out to an informal shooting range, and that is exactly what I do most of the time by my self out in the desert, and I live not to far from Ciudad Juarez Mexico, maybe a mile or two if that, but as most of you have said S.A. situational awarness. Most of my friend are leos, They tell me some of the stuff that they come aross,some bad stuff that the cartel do. sorry, rambling. We work odd hours so its hard to get together and shoot, I am not a leo.
I can relate to a lot of posts in where as you see cars / people off in the distance that do not make contact with you and be very observent where they are. I do have another gun that I CC when I go out to shoot. and park my car to the back of me when I go out shooting.
I see tactical training videos where the shooter takes a few shots and looks from side to side.
That action just comes automatic with me just because I am out in the desert by my self but I do a 360 just to feel some what secure, I have a bad habit of always looking around and not focusing on the subject that is talking to me but I do hear what is being said my wife gets pist all the time, sorry I went off on a tangent, enough. just wanted to talk.


I liked post 37
I mean, if I'm going to be getting on my motorcycle on a regular basis and not being bothered by the fact that doing so is undeniably the most dangerous thing I'll do on any given day, what sort of justification would I have for worrying about something that has been documented to have happened once, maybe twice, EVER? On the flip side, if I'm going to be worried enough about dying in an event that is so astronomically unlikely that I would not go shooting in a remote place without bringing back-up, how would I justify the WILLFUL exposure to such a high-risk activity as riding a motorcycle or, frankly, driving a car for that matter.

live life
 
You should study the shooting its very interested if you are as interested as I am in what the human body is capable of. Movies show people flying to the ground after getting shot in the chest one time and they are dead before they hit the ground. While that can happen in real life, the human body is an amazing machine and can be much harder to stop than people believe. If you want to look into this shootout further get W. French Anderson's book Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight. I have read it more than once and am amazed at what both parties accomplished that day with the gunshot wounds they recieved. It was not the 9mm's fault, and the FBI was so worried about overpenetration then the Silvertips they were using was a poor round at the time.
 
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