South African safari; hunting exotic animals?

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Are all elephants etc, shot because they are destroying crops. I can understand the conservation argument, something that could be done by park rangers. It still leaves me wondering why some would pay thousands to travel to Africa to kill large game, if their only motive was conservation, they could donate the money to the game reserves. Why not cut out all the excuses and trying to justify the hunting, and just tell it as it is they like hunting and killing large game for trophies, or whatever reasons not conservation. They would also use the most humane way possible to kill the game, not bows and arrows as some seem to use.

Oh. Uhm just me but i conserve to hunt. Kinda need both.

If you pay park rangers to kill them, you get alot less money out of people and less money goes to that country. There are economics and business involved.

As for humane way, well its the way some choose to hunt. Bow and arrow certainly more humane than being dragged off by lions and eaten alive.

Also conservation though it is truth it is probably a political and marketing term in todays world. It has to be in order to survive, if only we could write what things really are for right? like gun owners really want 2a because theyre scared of dying. Or pro choice people should be called murderers, etc. Calling it as it is does not work in todays world.

(For clarification i have many guns and am pro choice)
 
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Take deer hunting - deer hunters that see a 5 point or a 10 point buck will always take the 10 point

This statement is also completely false. It's called management hunting. I see it time and time again on the outdoor channel, a large 12 or 14 point buck walks into a clearing and the hunter (who is guided by a PH) is not allowed to shoot it. Why? They wish to keep those genetics in the gene pool.

I have also witnessed where those smaller deer are specifically targeted in order to remove inferior genetics from the herd.
 
boggles my mind that people who support gun-rights can support infringing other rights (my right to hunt/harvest meat)

the excat same counter arguments can be made

having it illegal creates a black market etc etc
 
no minds are being changed here, the anti posts are just to get a reaction out of others who feel regulated hunting is the best tool for keeping animals healthy and around for future generations to enjoy to hunt or see in the wild. IMHO we are being TROLLED. eastbank.
 
(my right to hunt/harvest meat)
I have no issue with hunting, when its done as humanely as possible and its sustainable for food or to protect a person's crops livestock. The post was not about hunting to (harvest meat) but people shooting large game for sport. I am sure you don't eat elephant giraffe or lions. My issue is stop trying to justify it by saying its for conservation, feeding Africans, and all the other reasons given. If people support hunting large game in Africa why not just say you like hunting and killing large game. I wonder are they trying to convince themselves rather than others that what they are doing justifiable.
 
The post was not about hunting to (harvest meat) but people shooting large game for sport. I am sure you don't eat elephant giraffe or lions.
While the hunter certainly doesn't eat all of it, that doesn't mean it isn't eaten. The locals are typically subsistence farmers/hunters and will eat anything that provides the necessary calories and nutrients. The meat does not go to waste. That has been said more than just once or twice on this thread.
My issue is stop trying to justify it by saying its for conservation, feeding Africans, and all the other reasons given. If people support hunting large game in Africa why not just say you like hunting and killing large game. I wonder are they trying to convince themselves rather than others that what they are doing justifiable.
First of all, as mentioned before, this is a false dichotomy.

I don't know why you think that a person must either like hunting or conservation but not both, but it is certainly not true. Hunters (besides enjoying hunting) are typically strong conservationists. This has been said more than just once or twice on this thread.

Second, it IS justifiable. If a person engages in a legal activity that which benefits conservation efforts, provides jobs and helps feed indigent persons, that is a good thing. If that person derives pleasure from that activity, it doesn't make it any less beneficial. Even if the person doesn't really want to provide all those benefits and only wants to hunt, the benefits are still provided and therefore the activity can be justified. This has been said more than once on this thread.

Finally, if you think that people are denying that hunters enjoy sport hunting, you are very slow on the uptake. Of course they enjoy it. That's why they are willing to spend so much money to engage in hunting. Do you think that people spend lots of money and time engaging in purely optional activities that they hate? What's really impressive is that sport hunters and those who understand how to manage game have found a way to allow sport hunters to engage in an activity they enjoy while at the same time providing benefits in the form of conservation, food and jobs to local peoples, anti-poaching, etc.

Based on your comments, it appears that you have a basic objection to sport hunting that is a fundamental outgrowth of your personal beliefs and feelings about what is right and wrong.

However, rather than just say that, you are trying to come up with reasons why your personal beliefs are right and any differing opinions are wrong. Because the arguments you're putting forth aren't the real reasons you object, you keep repeating the same arguments again and again even after they have been thoroughly addressed/debunked/countered. When a participant of a debate tries to use logic and facts to support a belief/opinion that is actually not based on logic or factual support, that is a recipe for frustration on both sides of the debate.
 
Ok I have to jump in. I am a hunter. I've been actively hunting deer for about 4 years.

"B. Accompany them to the pasture, and let them know which animals they may take, singling out the oldest, the least healthy, the ones that cannot reproduce, and most of the bulls. "

Are you telling me that if I pay $5000-$10000 USD to kill a lion, rhino, or elephant, that I can only kill the old sick animals? Why the hell would I pay for that?
 
... I can only kill the old sick animals?
If you want to kill a trophy bull elephant, you will likely be guided to kill one that is older (probably past breeding age and possibly getting old enough that its last set of teeth may be wearing out) or one that has been causing problems (being aggressive or damaging property). The "sick" part is probably an overstatement, but if there is an elephant that needs to be euthanized, the PH might give you the option to kill it on your license. I think you would be allowed to demur in that case, particularly if it wasn't a trophy otherwise.

It is true that you won't be given carte blanche to simply go shoot any elephant you want. However, since older bulls tend to have more ivory, being required to shoot an older animal is not necessarily a bad thing.
Why the hell would I pay for that?
If you want to hunt African dangerous game, you'll have to pay the appropriate fees and abide by the laws, rules and regulations that govern the activity. If you're not willing to do that then you won't be hunting African dangerous game.

It's like owning a Formula 1 racecar and then complaining that it can only be legally driven on a closed track. "Why would I pay all that money for a car that can only be driven on a closed track?" One might believe it would be more fun to drive one on the city streets, but society has determined that such a thing is unacceptable. If you want to own a Formula 1 car you will have to come to grips with the fact that it can only be legally driven on a closed track. If you want to hunt African dangerous game, you will have to come to grips with the fact that it costs a lot of money and is heavily regulated.
 
A frustrating aspect of threads like this one is the lack of homework on the part of the doubters and naysayers.

The self-imposed 11% tax on firearms goes to wildlife conservation. The money is pro-rated among the states' wildlife agencies as a function of the number of hunting licenses sold.

Ducks Unlimited has spent many tens of millions of dollars in purchasing and preserving wetlands for waterfowl nesting habitat.

In the SE US, Quail Unlimited is working on maintaining that species. In the west we have a similar group whose concern is elk; the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

And modern game management laws and regulations were initially brought about by the myriad efforts of conservationist hunters.
 
Fox guarding the hen house!

This isn't about ducks. While I fully appreciate the conservation efforts of ducks unlimited, and hunting efforts and conservation efforts in 1st world USA where laws are easily enforceable, etc, using out conservation model here to help deer and ducks prosper - where they are in no danger (I see deer and ducks on a regular basis, and have them living in my back yard), it's a far cry from the argument and conservation in Africa for majestic creatures which have had their populations decimated by humans taking land and hunting. Plain and simple.

Global efforts - the US and other nations are willing to spend fortunes on stupid programs, equipment, etc. If we spent our budget rounding errors on a military presence there, send a Battalion or Brigade from AFRICOM up to monitor and guard these herds of elephants, giraffes, lions, etc, that would be the best solution to the problem. Send up a handful of drones to monitor, record, report over these herds... An aggressive multi-national posture from US and other nations including African Soldiers to protect these herds.

I understand the argument about culling the weak, injured, etc. But nobody is paying game tickets to kill a diseased elephant laying on the ground waiting to die. They are killing the strong healthy trophy ones. If a person were truly interested in conserving a struggling species, it is totally illogical to kill healthy members of that population.

It's totally intellectually dishonest to say that someone is paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to "cull" the dying one in the herd, and to pretend this is all to save the species. You don't kill healthy xyz for to help anything. You kill wounded, cancerous, etc. or for your own needs/pleasure.
 
This isn't about ducks. While I fully appreciate the conservation efforts of ducks unlimited, and hunting efforts and conservation efforts in 1st world USA where laws are easily enforceable, etc, using out conservation model here to help deer and ducks prosper - where they are in no danger (I see deer and ducks on a regular basis, and have them living in my back yard), it's a far cry from the argument and conservation in Africa for majestic creatures which have had their populations decimated by humans taking land and hunting. Plain and simple.

Global efforts - the US and other nations are willing to spend fortunes on stupid programs, equipment, etc. If we spent our budget rounding errors on a military presence there, send a Battalion or Brigade from AFRICOM up to monitor and guard these herds of elephants, giraffes, lions, etc, that would be the best solution to the problem. Send up a handful of drones to monitor, record, report over these herds... An aggressive multi-national posture from US and other nations including African Soldiers to protect these herds.

I understand the argument about culling the weak, injured, etc. But nobody is paying game tickets to kill a diseased elephant laying on the ground waiting to die. They are killing the strong healthy trophy ones. If a person were truly interested in conserving a struggling species, it is totally illogical to kill healthy members of that population.

It's totally intellectually dishonest to say that someone is paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to "cull" the dying one in the herd, and to pretend this is all to save the species. You don't kill healthy xyz for to help anything. You kill wounded, cancerous, etc. or for your own needs/pleasure.

Uhm. Its far cheaper to kill a cull animal than a trophy as in from a couple hundred for cull to thousanda and tens of thousands for trophy.. So yes people pay to kill them, no they are not dying on the ground.

It is absolutely intellectually dishonest to assume knowledge of a subject one does not obviously understand or have researched. I understand you can be against it, i just wish youd reaearch it and actually understand with correct facts and not aasumption before hating it.

And yes as evidenced by the black old rhino people do pay to cull. On one hand they can get he hunt of a lifetime, on another they get to give a bunch of money back. Its no different than any other "selfless" act which will truly always be selfish in nature. You help out the needy because you want to satisfy a higher being or you want to feel good about yourself.
 
Global efforts - the US and other nations are willing to spend fortunes on stupid programs, equipment, etc. If we spent our budget rounding errors on a military presence there, send a Battalion or Brigade from AFRICOM up to monitor and guard these herds of elephants, giraffes, lions, etc, that would be the best solution to the problem. Send up a handful of drones to monitor, record, report over these herds... An aggressive multi-national posture from US and other nations including African Soldiers to protect these herds.
Why do that? With a properly administered sport hunting program, you can get hunters to voluntarily pay for all that. Furthermore, because it gives the animals commercial value, there are people whose livelihoods directly depend on the animals who will aid in enforcement. Also, some of the less involved people who might have formerly poached, aided poachers or turned a blind eye will now actually provide anti-poaching assistance because they benefit in one way or another from the hunting.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. There's already an effective solution available. It costs nothing--in fact it generates its own revenue.

It would be colossally stupid to pay to have something done when there are those who will pay for the privilege and pay so much that you can fund additional conservation efforts from the surplus.
I understand the argument about culling the weak, injured, etc. But nobody is paying game tickets to kill a diseased elephant laying on the ground waiting to die.
This is a strawman. Nobody is claiming that sport hunting is all about shooting sick animals lying on the ground. It is true that sometimes sick or dying animals are taken on license, but that's not the norm.
They are killing the strong healthy trophy ones.
Trophy animals are typically older animals, generally past breeding age and often so old that their expected remaining lifespan is quite short. That doesn't mean they're decrepit or sick and lying on the ground but their age (and other factors) does mean that they can be taken without an adverse effect on the population.
If a person were truly interested in conserving a struggling species, it is totally illogical to kill healthy members of that population.
You said this before. It's no more true this time than the last time you said it. Simply repeating a false statement over and over won't make it true.

First of all, part of maintaining a healthy population is insuring that the population levels are commensurate with the size of the habitat. That can include culling healthy animals, but even if that's not necessary, a reasonable number of animals past breeding age can be taken without a negative effect on the population level. They can be allowed to live out their remaining few months, die (typically of starvation) and be wasted or they can be turned into a resource that benefits their species and many humans as well.
It's totally intellectually dishonest to say that someone is paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to "cull" the dying one in the herd, and to pretend this is all to save the species.
Killing dying animals does happen from time to time, but as mentioned, it's not the norm. As far as hunting animals to save the species, it is perfectly honest and completely factual to point out that properly managed sport hunting is a very effective way to maintain the population of a species.
You don't kill healthy xyz for to help anything.
That's obviously incorrect.

1. Since habitat is not unlimited, the population must be controlled. Population control is beneficial to the species.

2. By creating a valuable financial resource through the taking of a few animals via legal sport hunting, the entire species in the area benefits from the fact that there are many stakeholders invested in the animals who wish to protect them.
You kill ... for your own needs/pleasure.
As I mentioned in a previous post, people obviously enjoy hunting or they would not pay for the privilege but that does not mean that they don't want to preserve the species. They can want both and many (probably nearly all) do.

It is fortunate for all involved that a system has been devised by which people can both satisfy their desire to hunt AND support the species they wish to hunt.

What I gather from your statements is that you don't approve of sport hunting--not because it doesn't accomplish goals that you claim to support but because you have a fundamental problem with the idea of someone killing an animal when they don't have to do so. That's fine. I'm sure there are others who share your views.

I do hope that they are not so blinded by emotion that they can't see the concrete benefits that legal and properly managed sport hunting provides. To do away with such an effective program in the name of conservation is truly cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Your opinions are not based on fact or logic. The statements you have made are inconsistent with the facts and can be picked apart with simple logic. The alternative is that you are arguing based on your feelings/beliefs/emotions. It is true that everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but it is also true that not all opinions can be supported with hard data. Sadly, yours is a good example of the latter.
 
...clearly elephants are taking up too much space in Africa...
While it is easier to respond to strawmen arguments, it is not productive.

Your comment is a response to a strawman--no one has said that elephants are taking up too much space in Africa, only that habitat is not unlimited.

Unless habitat is unlimited, there is only a finite population of any species that can be supported. The map you found shows that there are multiple, often isolated habitats spread throughout Africa.

In each of those habitats:

1. The population needs to be managed in order to prevent the animals from destroying their own habitat. Elephants can be quite destructive to their habitat and have no natural enemies as do most other animals.

2. In many of the ranges, humans and elephants share some areas. In those areas, it is important to insure constructive interaction rather than allowing depredation, elephant attacks, poaching, etc.

3. In order to insure that the ranges do not shrink further, it is important to create an incentive for those in the area to protect the ranges and not to infringe upon them.

Carefully managed sport hunting can accomplish all those things while being self-funding and even providing a surplus for additional conservation efforts.

I was just reading an article by David Dunning and one quote seemed particularly appropriate to this discussion.
Some of our most stubborn misbeliefs arise not from primitive childlike intuitions or careless category errors, but from the very values and philosophies that define who we are as individuals. Each of us possesses certain foundational beliefs—narratives about the self, ideas about the social order—that essentially cannot be violated: To contradict them would call into question our very self-worth. As such, these views demand fealty from other opinions. And any information that we glean from the world is amended, distorted, diminished, or forgotten in order to make sure that these sacrosanct beliefs remain whole and unharmed.​
It's important to let the facts be the facts and not twist them to fit our view of how we believe things should be.

In this case, the facts clearly support the reality that carefully controlled sport hunting is a very effective means of conservation. It does involve people killing animals even though they do not have a personal need (hunger, self-defense, etc.) to do so and that may be distasteful to some. However, that distaste does not change the facts.
 
i pay thousands of dollars to hunt all over the world, and i have seen up close what pouching and the unregulated killing of animals in the field is. so will the trolls please tell me how much of your money and time you put towards helping wildlife survive? or are you a armchair animal saver. and you show by putting up the map of africa that you don,t know the facts about habiat in africa. africa is a very big place and it has a lot of land that will not even support crab grass. and the animals you posted that were near or are extinct was not done by regulated hunting. eastbank.
 
What I gather from your statements is that you don't approve of sport hunting--not because it doesn't accomplish goals that you claim to support but because you have a fundamental problem with the idea of someone killing an animal when they don't have to do so.


Pretty much sims it up, which is why I've exited this thread.

Killing isn't pretty or totaly free of pain and suffering, but I've always wondered about the scenario in the heads of these people, of how they imagine a "natural death" goes. Of all the predators, the sportsman is the most humane, but when it comes to natural death and suffering of mature animals, the ones killed by even the cruelest of natures predators are the lucky ones. Old animals don't die in their sleep while being kept comfortable by their peers.
 
Absent disease and predation, deer and elk die of starvation. The dust/dirt/sand on the food they eat wears down their teeth such that they can't bite and chew with any efficiency. They then weaken and die.

Somehow, some see that as preferable to a hunter's killing in that last year of prime condition.

leadcounsel sees ducks in his yard due to the efforts from hunters promulgating game laws and to the work of such groups as Ducks Unlimited in habitat protection.
 
Some of our most stubborn misbeliefs arise not from primitive childlike intuitions or careless category errors, but from the very values and philosophies that define who we are as individuals. Each of us possesses certain foundational beliefs—narratives about the self, ideas about the social order—that essentially cannot be violated: To contradict them would call into question our very self-worth. As such, these views demand fealty from other opinions. And any information that we glean from the world is amended, distorted, diminished, or forgotten in order to make sure that these sacrosanct beliefs remain whole and unharmed.

That could apply to both sides of the debate.

i pay thousands of dollars to hunt all over the world, and i have seen up close what pouching and the unregulated killing of animals in the field is. so will the trolls please tell me how much of your money and time you put towards helping wildlife survive?
Your post is all about hunting helping animals, the money you spend that helps animals. Why not just say you like hunting animals. I us to hunt it wasn't for conservation , or to help hungry people, I didn't try to justify it by coming up with all sorts of reasons, I just liked hunting.
 
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you are wrong,i don,t like hunting. i love it. and its not about killing some animal as i have had many animals in my sights and never pulled the trigger. for me the shooting of the animal is only a small part of hunting, the hunt for me starts long the before the hunt begins and lasts long after the hunt is over. i guess i could play golf, sky dive, cave crawling, bingo, ice skate or a million other things, but i choose to hunt. if you have sat in a wet,cold duck blind with a good dog, sat in the early spring dawn waiting for the first gobble, jumped rabbits out of a brier patch, sat on stand in a blinding snow storm waiting for a deer, wiped the sweat from you eyes as your tracker tried to point out the animal to you in heavy brush, so close to elephants you could hear their belly,s rumble or get stared down by several cape buffalo at 20-25 yards and not want to do it over and over, i guess you may not be a true hunter and maybe should take up still fishing. eastbank.
 
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