South African safari; hunting exotic animals?
- Thread starter Kimio
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Animal rights activists go out of their minds when a chicken is killed for dinner.
"...where there was once MILLIONS of elephants, HUNTERS are responsible for cutting their numbers down to a tiny fraction of what we once had..." Horse hockey. There were never millions of elephants and poachers and habitat loss(primarily for agriculture) reduced the numbers. China is the biggest importer of illegal ivory. Ivory stuff is a symbol of wealth in China. Little or no controls over the illegal trade either.
"...where there was once MILLIONS of elephants, HUNTERS are responsible for cutting their numbers down to a tiny fraction of what we once had..." Horse hockey. There were never millions of elephants and poachers and habitat loss(primarily for agriculture) reduced the numbers. China is the biggest importer of illegal ivory. Ivory stuff is a symbol of wealth in China. Little or no controls over the illegal trade either.
leadcounsel
Moderator
One of the biggest issues here is hunting ethics.
As much as I detest hunters that kill common animals for sport (prarie dogs, coyotes, etc.), at least for now their numbers are not in jeopardy.
With the numbers of big cats, apes, elephants, sharks, and other amazing creatures in serious jeopardy, it is incumbent on humans to act with a bit more compassion and responsibility toward their survival. I'll footnote that we, as a human race, in our quest for more resources, have and continue to threaten the territories where these creatures live.
The argument that killing more of them somehow saves them is lost on me. Equally lost on me is how one could feel a sense of pride or accomplishment at killing such a majestic creature, particularly with the "enlightened" knowledge their numbers are struggling.
As much as I detest hunters that kill common animals for sport (prarie dogs, coyotes, etc.), at least for now their numbers are not in jeopardy.
With the numbers of big cats, apes, elephants, sharks, and other amazing creatures in serious jeopardy, it is incumbent on humans to act with a bit more compassion and responsibility toward their survival. I'll footnote that we, as a human race, in our quest for more resources, have and continue to threaten the territories where these creatures live.
The argument that killing more of them somehow saves them is lost on me. Equally lost on me is how one could feel a sense of pride or accomplishment at killing such a majestic creature, particularly with the "enlightened" knowledge their numbers are struggling.
I'm not being flippant but if you still don't understand it's because you're not paying attention or, you don't want to.
I think what you really mean is that you understand exactly how hunting animals contributes to their survival more than animal rights groups actions do, but you don't like it and wish there were another viable option.
I'm curious, what is your opinion is on the plight of the snow goose?
if they have only food for 200,000 and there are 500,000 of them, please tell me what do you do? do you let 300,000 starve to death and waste the meat and money that they would have brought had they been used as a cash crop? thats the problem in most of the africa countries. in some of the areas here in the U.S. they have to shoot the excess of deer or the whole herd may die, i guess you and the anti,s could try to force feed them birth controll, but that was tried and didn,t work. there are area,s in the U.S that animal,s have been reintroduced that had been hunted to low numbers due to no hunting laws and now there are mountain sheep,elk,buffalo,turkey and many more that are thriving because of the hunting laws and sporting dollars. AND NO ANIMALS ARE HUNTED BY TRUE SPORTSMEN THAT ARE STRUGGLING, EXCEPT FOR POUCHERS WHO DON,T GIVE A HOOT AND ONLY AFTER THE MONEY OR FOR FOOD TO FEED THEIR FAMILEYS. WELL THE BRIGHT SIDE IS THAT STATES HAVE ENACTED LAWS TO KEEP YOU OUT OF THE WOODS AND FIELDS BOTHERING LAWFULL HUNTERS. eastbank.
DETESTING, hunters who kill destructive rodents or any other animal for sport is a concept that is hard to grasp. You can expect to have the right to your life & opinion. HOWEVER, those who understand the cycle of life and have participated in it since our youth as farmers and hunters are now DETESTABLE and our version of reality should be eliminated. I guess freedom is only for those with the "correct" opinion. All of history & biology is on the other side from you.
leadcounsel
Moderator
So, how do you feel about "helping" the bald eagle by hunting it, laws aside?
If you can point out a specific range where they are confined, that cannot support their current numbers, where they are destroying there own habitit, and insufficient food is affecting the health of all of the eagles in that area, and there was no additional range to transfer the surplus eagles, then auctioning off some eagle hunting tags would make perfect sense.
Survival of the herd is more certain with 500 healthy animals than 600 sick and malnourished ones.
How do feel about sacrificing the whole herd to protect the individual animal?
It took about 40 years for the Bald Eagle to reach levels high enough to be removed from the endangered species list.
I would point to the reintroduction of the elk to Kentucky. Starting with 5 animals, it took ten years of efforts (200 animals per year) for the animal to take over its own reproduction and for the first time 150 years, elk numbers were high enough the state could issue hunting tags for them. 11 years ahead of the predicted schedule.
Done by hunters for the enjoyment of everyone. In ten years. Do the animal rights groups have any success stories like this one?
I've been to Africa, I've seen their wildlife up close. I would never chose to go there to kill an animal, I hunt locally for meat. But that's my choice, and who am I to judge the choices of others? Especially since the agendas of many groups would include banning ethical hunting in my own back yard.
The bottom line is that extinction is being driven by loss of habitat and by foreign demand for tusks, teeth, and for various body parts of various animals. But not by ethical hunting. I don't understand why someone would go to Africa to shoot something and then mount it on a wall, but I do believe that they respect wildlife more than people who think that snorting part of a Rino horn will improve your skills in bed.
The bottom line is that extinction is being driven by loss of habitat and by foreign demand for tusks, teeth, and for various body parts of various animals. But not by ethical hunting. I don't understand why someone would go to Africa to shoot something and then mount it on a wall, but I do believe that they respect wildlife more than people who think that snorting part of a Rino horn will improve your skills in bed.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
The history of wildlife is that since the controls engendered by hunters became fairly "modern" by the 1930s/1940s, no game species in the US has done other than increase in numbers.
Locally, in some areas, loss of habitat from conversion of open land to residential/commercial/industrial development has caused some reduction. But not overall.
Hunting provides a monetary value to game species. Absent that, only a trivial level of hit-or-miss protection exists. And hunters' $$$ are the primary source of wardens' salaries, whether state or federal.
Locally, in some areas, loss of habitat from conversion of open land to residential/commercial/industrial development has caused some reduction. But not overall.
Hunting provides a monetary value to game species. Absent that, only a trivial level of hit-or-miss protection exists. And hunters' $$$ are the primary source of wardens' salaries, whether state or federal.
Bultaco, I think you may be correct in your assessment of Leadcounsel!
However, the "troll" has captured my interest in debating the question of elephant hunting. Having been to South Africa in 2010 and personally witnessing the destruction caused by an overpopulation of elephants due to a ban on the culling of elephants in Kruger Park, I did some further research.
This article can explain it far more eloquently than I. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/25/AR2008022500970.html
If the link doesn't work from this post, it can be cut/pasted into your browser.
The bottom line (which the animal rights activists don't understand) is that controlled hunting of a species; be it deer, elk, or elephants, is good for the population of the species. Trying to protect every animal of a specie will ultimately lead to the destruction of said specie! This is particularly true of the elephants which only have ONE natural predator! In the case of the elephant, that predator is MAN.
If anyone would like to see photos of the destruction caused by elephants to a game ranch just downriver from Kruger Park or photos of SA game wardens and professional hunters recruited by them to hunt elephants on a public road, pm me and I will be glad to email them to you.
However, the "troll" has captured my interest in debating the question of elephant hunting. Having been to South Africa in 2010 and personally witnessing the destruction caused by an overpopulation of elephants due to a ban on the culling of elephants in Kruger Park, I did some further research.
This article can explain it far more eloquently than I. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/25/AR2008022500970.html
If the link doesn't work from this post, it can be cut/pasted into your browser.
The bottom line (which the animal rights activists don't understand) is that controlled hunting of a species; be it deer, elk, or elephants, is good for the population of the species. Trying to protect every animal of a specie will ultimately lead to the destruction of said specie! This is particularly true of the elephants which only have ONE natural predator! In the case of the elephant, that predator is MAN.
If anyone would like to see photos of the destruction caused by elephants to a game ranch just downriver from Kruger Park or photos of SA game wardens and professional hunters recruited by them to hunt elephants on a public road, pm me and I will be glad to email them to you.
There are rules and regs concerning the hunting of animals in South Africa, however it is largely regulated by the owner of the farm. If an animal strays to said farmers land it is considered his. This leads to much baiting and canned hunts. If you go to the bush with anything but respect and admiration for everything around you, you don't deserve to be there. Finding a reputable hunting lodge is difficult, we have been dedicating all free time to protecting the animals from said baiting and a few have dropped in our sites. If you want to know about legal hunting look at Botswana's laws concerning the subject. There is almost none available. If you look at a corrupt state like Zimbabwe... Many tags can be had... Whatever your in tensions realize that many of us ex sandf are offering our time to protect your targets.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Generalizing:
The hunter must have a surplus of game animals or he has nothing to hunt. You spend the interest, not the capital. There is thus a vested interest in the good of a species.
A large percentage of anti-hunters worry over the fate of individual animals to a greater extent than for the good of the species. Their arguments are based far more on emotion and opinion than on the objectivity of facts. I've long said that the worst enemies of rational wildlife management were Felix Salter and Walt Disney.
The hunter must have a surplus of game animals or he has nothing to hunt. You spend the interest, not the capital. There is thus a vested interest in the good of a species.
A large percentage of anti-hunters worry over the fate of individual animals to a greater extent than for the good of the species. Their arguments are based far more on emotion and opinion than on the objectivity of facts. I've long said that the worst enemies of rational wildlife management were Felix Salter and Walt Disney.
I personally don't understand anyone wanting to shoot an Elephant or Giraffe etc. I don't buy the conservation and other reasons given, people do because they want to kill large animals for some reason. If their was an Elephant destroying their crops or a danger to them I can see them having to possibly control them, but to go to another country to shoot large game is more to do with them than any other reason.
troll on, troll on harvest moon.if you don,t want to hunt, DON,T. if you do,BOOK A HUNT. believe me the people who benifit from it will welcome you. if there is no hunting their still are two very big reasons the animals will decline MOTHER NATURE AND POUCHERS. the ranchs i hunt, limit what animals you are allowed to take. when they reach that number no more are allowed to be taken.and if i want to hunt there again i had better listen! and as you have a PH and tracker with you its very hard to cheat. eastbank.
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