Slow and heavy or fast and light: requesting definite answer

"Shot placement is all that matters against a person with a caliber .38/9mm or higher."

i am not sure what you mean by blood reservoir..i thought it was a circulatroy system.

if some internal organs hold much more vital blood and would cause blood loss faster than forearm or calf arteries, that i am not sure about.

i was mainly trying to establish if a (widely available cartridges) smaller lighter/less diameter bullet with more energy than a slower heaver/larger diameter bullet would be a better penetrator....to me it seems that penetration is key to destroying organs and bodily damage.
would assurance of better penetration yield a more effective bullet in stopping and disrupting human systems....through the everyday things we see, clothes, jackets, windows, doors, walls, etc.

thanks for your reply
 
I understand what you're getting at, and will adress it at the end. No attitude or anything is intended, so I hope you don't take it as such. I'm just addressing some of the nonsense responses a thread like this can generate from other users. I actually never even read your post. :D

First, to clear this up, certain organs in the body are considered "blood reservoirs", including veins (NOT arteries), spleen, and digestive system. These organs hold the majority of the body's blood supply. Basically, bleeding out is only going to work when you hit major blood storage/transport areas. Even then you still won't see results fast enough. Head or heart shots produce a lot of blood, but the incapacitation will be a result of the destruction of the organ, not the blood loss. As a general rule, the further the injury is from the heart, the less "bleeding out" can occur.

My point is the heavy & slow vs. light & fast is irrelevant when you use a caliber of weapon with adequate power for the task at hand. For a person, the 9mm or .38 Spl is much like shooting a bear with a .45-70. It is the right tool for the job. Of course, you could bump it up to the .50 BMG SLAP round, but it's not necessary. If you're going to look at something of lesser power, including the .380 ACP, you should probably try to approach 9mm weight with the bullet, as it will go further. You may even want a FMJ round. So, in regard to inferior defense rounds, you want heavy and fast ideally, but you'll have to settle for heavy/slow. Honestly, I would look at penetration numbers more than weight, as you would be surprised to see some lighter rounds will go further in the big block of fancy jello we use to simulate (incorrectly, mind you) a human body. ;):cool:

EDIT:
sthomper, after reading your post, I can agree with that. There is no real downside to overpenetration when it comes to destroying tissues. Of course, that is not to be construed to apply to the surrounding environment (to include bystanders).

Also, this all assumes the subject is wearing normal clothing, not a 4" thick down jacket on top of 3 t-shirts and a sweater. Sometimes, these objects can slow a bullet down significantly. That's another thread on bullet sectional density vs. weight, etc. I won't touch here.
 
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Heavy & Fast

The 10 mm, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt +P all have an edge over the standard service calibers, i.e. .38 Sp-.45 ACP. IF you can handle them. :D

10mm-1.jpg


Levity aside, anything from .38 Special to .45 ACP will give nearly the same results, in fact ER Doctors and pathologists have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between the wound channels they leave.
 
If there were a "definitive answer", do you think there would be so much ongoing discussion? :rolleyes:

The only real answer is, there is no real answer. There are a lot of possible answers. Everything is a compromise, and most everyone will do whatever they can to justify their choice.

The discussion will continue forever--ignore it.

Choose the one that works best for you.
 
Both. It depends on ammo selection. Also, it depends on how well your gun [and yes, the shooter as well] can handle such a selection.

Now, I prefer .45ACP and .40 S&W. Are these the "best" for everyone? Probably not. But, they suit me and apparently, have worked quite well for others.

However, ballistic reports and ammo comparisons really do not amount to much if you cannot hit what you are aiming at. Just some food for thought.
 
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The definitive answer is that loss of blood is what decides most gunfights.
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From what I've been able to determine, what decides most gunfights is who gives up first. It seems that it's fairly rare to actually have to physically incapacitate an attacker to stop an attack. A gunshot wound, even a minor one, tends to be a remarkable priority changer.

I've seen some experts suggest that whoever gets the first hit is most likely going to win. Probably some of that has to do with the person getting hit giving up, some of it obviously has to do with losing capability due to injury which creates a disadvantage that is likely to grow.

There are a few cases where an attacker must be physically incapacitated, but if you have to wait for them to bleed out, it's going to take a lot longer than most of us can hold out while being shot at. Platt lived around 4 minutes after taking a fatal hit to the chest and killed/wounded several FBI agents during that time.

Rapid incapacitation comes from a hit to the central nervous system and that's got very little to do with terminal performance as long as we're comparing calibers in the general performance class of the service pistol calibers.

What it really comes down to is that caliber (in the context of choosing between service pistol calibers) is rarely a deciding factor in who wins gunfights.

The only real conclusion is that agonizing over the terminal performance differences due to caliber choice is really not very productive.

If you pick a typical self-defense caliber that will penetrate to the level recommended by the FBI when using expanding ammunition then you haven't made a bad choice.
 
Good points John.

While I certainly understand (and support) the affinity for certain calibers, after all is said and done (at least as far as personal defense is concerned), once a "victim" fires a weapon, they are probably no longer considered defenseless and vulnerable. At this point, I would imagine that the "assailant" would be forced to reevaluate his/her situation...and fast. After all, most "marks" are chosen due to vulnerability. Once a person shows that they are no longer as vulnerable as once thought [and are now implementing potentially deadly force], the game likely changes. Not always, but probably more often than not.

Having said this, I still tend to place more trust in the likes of the .45 and .40 calibers as these are what I most often shoot and therefore, feel most comfortable with. Their "track record" does not hurt either. Of course, they are still handgun loads; due to this, they are limited in their effectiveness.

After all is said and done, if one is truly concerned about "stopping" an attack (given the appropriate situation), well... I hate to bring up such a cliche response, but the shotgun would trump any handgun. Off topic, but I just had to say it.
 
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size is irrelevant...

...if placement is wrong.

I won't go into bullet barriers (clothes, windows, etc.) or other "issues."

Small and fast can go in and out, can go in and bounce, can go in and stay in...
Large and slow can go in and out, can go in and bounce, can go in and stay in...

If the bullet doesn't hit something to cause massive bleeding, the size and speed likely are irrelevant.

You have just lost control of the horizontal and vertical... I now control the monitor...

Imagine the same man in two parallel universes. The man is shot, in universe A, by a large and slow bullet. In universe B, the man is shot in the exact same spot by a small and fast bullet traveling at the same angle as that bullet in universe A. Without knowing his hydration ( :rolleyes: ), his blood vessel layout, the exact location of the entry point, etc., how can a scientist tell you which is better?

Physics says momentum is "the power residing in a moving object" such that

p = mv

where p is the momentum, m is the mass and v is the velocity.

However, that may be irrelevant if the bullet passes through his cheek (any of the 4 may work..). Might the larger bullet cause more bleeding? It might. However, the placement determines the bleeding, and any bleeding may not be life threatening or incapacitating... In the cheek example, the perp may simply yell, be in pain (later), and walk or limp, depending on which cheek is shot, away...

So, stop worrying about size...

Focus on placement.
 
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So, stop worrying about size...
Focus on placement.
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Did you read the OP???
Spare the shot placement is king discourse, what is more incapacitating? A heavy and slow bullet or a fast and light one? Seems there should be someone with the scientific expertise to answer this question
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Reading is fundmental... :rolleyes:
 
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I did...

The issues is that size, without placement, doesn't mean much imho. I don't see a big push for everyone to carry a .50 Desert Eagle...

Without even getting into the following questions...

How big is the shooter? How much strength does the shooter have? ...

Unless you can say where you are hitting the person being shot, the size of the bullet doesn't matter...

Intelligent people can disagree, and I simply put forth my two cents saying "there is no answer without more specifics." Sorry if you didn't like my response...
 
Yep, and considering variables is something that we all do.

The question is, when you eliminate the variables...what happens next?

That is the essence of any scientific method. Eliminate the variables, control the experiment..and find out what happens next.

And that is what the OP asked.

You don't inject an elephant and a lab rat with the same dose of a disease...because the results would be inconclusve.

Read the question, and answer it. Don't answer a question that was not asked, or invent a question and answer it.
 
A heavy and slow bullet or a fast and light one? Seems there should be someone with the scientific expertise to answer this question.
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Not necessarily. All you will find is one endless debate, given the list of variables associated with such a question. Take a look at any [reliable and consistent] ballistic test and judge for yourself. Outside of such "controlled" situations, the results really do not amount to all that much, for the most part. Again, this is due to variables...

The question is, when you eliminate the variables...what happens next?
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What happens next is that you end up with something that looks great on paper (or video), but in reality does not account for much. Right from the start, we would need to establish an ideal "slow and heavy" load vs an ideal "fast and light" load, each fired out of a particular weapon, along with a particular length of barrel. At this point we are just speaking of hardware variables. And let us suppose that we have a clear winner, what does that really prove? Because, inevitably, this "winner" will end up being fired out of all sorts of weapons (within a particular caliber/make/model), which are being held by shooters ranging from complete novices to experts. Lets not forget to factor in "stress fire." Of course, since the OP question does not deal with any specific load this introduces even more variables. Oh and then there is the whole matter of exactly what is being hit with these loads.

Now I am not arguing that, say, a .22 would be as effective as a .45ACP load. Yes, certainly various loads are more effective than others...we all know this. But, in regards to the OP question, raw data really means nothing as it does not account for human intervention.
 
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Well, not exactly...

That is the essence of any scientific method. Eliminate the variables, control the experiment..and find out what happens next.
Click to expand...

I simply don't think you can remove enough variables to answer the question so that it "makes sense."

You are welcome to disagree. :D
 
JohnKSa said:
Rapid incapacitation comes from a hit to the central nervous system and that's got very little to do with terminal performance as long as we're comparing calibers in the general performance class of the service pistol calibers.

What it really comes down to is that caliber (in the context of choosing between service pistol calibers) is rarely a deciding factor in who wins gunfights.

The only real conclusion is that agonizing over the terminal performance differences due to caliber choice is really not very productive.

If you pick a typical self-defense caliber that will penetrate to the level recommended by the FBI when using expanding ammunition then you haven't made a bad choice.
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Above is the most definitive answer to your question that you are probably ever going to get.

Each defensive pistol shooting is a unique and seperate event. The outcome of which cannot be predicted by past incidents of a similar nature.

There are no magic defensive pistols, or ammunition, or caliber, or cartiridge of that ammunition that is vastly superior to the others. That includes light and heavy projectiles.

Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition.- Doctor Gary Roberts


Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads

If you really want to delve deeper into the subject, I would suggest that you read Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK it is still one of the best works in this regard.
 
Maromero said:
This post was not ment to create a caliber debate.
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After being exposed to the cynical sarcasm of our beloved Mike Irwin; my first inclination was to ask you if you were being intentionally obtuse. However, seeing as how your location is outside the US, I'll take the possibility of a language barrier into account.

In the OP you asked which was better light and fast or slow and heavy?

The answer is: both have the potential to work equally well.
 
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