Slow and heavy or fast and light: requesting definite answer
- Thread starter Maromero
- Start date
Nope
+1 about the too many variables. That's what I meant by "too simplistic".
Incapacitate? A 90 lb. 4 ft. 6 inch human or a 6 ft. 7 inch 320 pounder. Do we expect the same result?
Y'know....we hear frequently that the .22LR is inadequate for SD. That may be. I'm not about to argue that. There are lots of examples to show that it doesn't work. I am, however, always reminded of the video coverage of John Hinckley's assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan in which, in addition to seriously wounding the President with a ricochet, he incapacitated three men with six shots from a .22 pistol.
Variables.
Pete
Has to be? Why does there have to be?
+1 about the too many variables. That's what I meant by "too simplistic".
Incapacitate? A 90 lb. 4 ft. 6 inch human or a 6 ft. 7 inch 320 pounder. Do we expect the same result?
Y'know....we hear frequently that the .22LR is inadequate for SD. That may be. I'm not about to argue that. There are lots of examples to show that it doesn't work. I am, however, always reminded of the video coverage of John Hinckley's assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan in which, in addition to seriously wounding the President with a ricochet, he incapacitated three men with six shots from a .22 pistol.
Variables.
Pete
I'd go with heavy-slow bullet. Heck, think of the damage that a car causes traveling only 50 mph if it hits a person just standing in front of it. Then think of what happen if a sub-atomic particle was shot at you at near light speed - it would have little to to effect on you.
Big and slow beats small and fast.
Big and slow beats small and fast.
ScottRiqui
New member
The problem with the "subatomic particle versus brick/car" reasoning is that you've exaggerated the "light" aspect of the particle MUCH more than you've exaggerated the "slow" part of the car/brick. The car/brick isn't doing more damage simple because it's slow/heavy; it's doing more damage because it has about a hundred trillion times greater momentum and kinetic energy.
How about this - compare an electron moving at nearly the speed of light with a car moving at one millimeter per millenium. Now which one does more damage? Pretty silly, huh?
If we're going to compare "slow and heavy" versus "light and fast", we should at least try to make it fair by keeping either the momentum or kinetic energy relatively constant between the two projectiles.
How about this - compare an electron moving at nearly the speed of light with a car moving at one millimeter per millenium. Now which one does more damage? Pretty silly, huh?
If we're going to compare "slow and heavy" versus "light and fast", we should at least try to make it fair by keeping either the momentum or kinetic energy relatively constant between the two projectiles.
My thoughts are that none of the components of that question are really relevant without examining sectional density. What good is heavy if it is a 1 ounce lead disk that is 1-1/2 inches in diameter that won't penetrate at any speed? What really, truly matters in penetration is sectional density. a heavy for the diameter bullet is what will penetrate. it has to retain that heavy for diameter characteristic, or it will just clog up and stop before it causes enough blood loss.
The 148 grain .38 special wad cutter is one of the better penetrating rounds that I have ever tested. High sectional density, and it retains that shape and SD every millimeter of the way through the target. Not a bit of the energy of that round is expended on deforming the bullet, it is all used in forcing a hole through the backstop.
So. for example, take the 148 DEWC bullet. High SD. at 1,000 fps it would give great penetration. poor wound. Give it 1,500 fps velocity, and it still makes a poor wound, just deeper.
Take a 158 grain SWC hard cast, at both of those velocities. Even higher sd, and at both velocities, you are obviously going to have slightly deeper penetration over a 148 grain bullet.
Now take a 110 grain lead bullet. LOW SD, at both of those velocities, it will penetrate far less than either round, and make a poor and shallow wound.
A hollow point or other expanding bullet's first and key role in wound ballistics is that it increases the SD upon impact. Now, the bullet can be fired at high velocities, heavy weights, and high sectional density, with higher momentum and KE figures, and not expend it's energy on the other side of a target. A 158 grain SWC in .357 will in many cases drive a hole through a target of bore diameter, through and through.
A hollow point that expands to .45" diameter will leave a wound larger than bore diameter, and will not penetrate through, wasting energy.
Penetration and wound size all depend on velocity and sectional density more than anything else. A 185 grain hard cast .357 magnum bullet at 800 fps will drill through a body like a piece of rebar in a tornado. a 185 grain high performing hollow point in .45 at that same velocity will create a far larger wound, but at the expense of deep penetration.
There is where the issue really lies. managing your SD and velocities, and the SD as it travels through the wound.
The 148 grain .38 special wad cutter is one of the better penetrating rounds that I have ever tested. High sectional density, and it retains that shape and SD every millimeter of the way through the target. Not a bit of the energy of that round is expended on deforming the bullet, it is all used in forcing a hole through the backstop.
So. for example, take the 148 DEWC bullet. High SD. at 1,000 fps it would give great penetration. poor wound. Give it 1,500 fps velocity, and it still makes a poor wound, just deeper.
Take a 158 grain SWC hard cast, at both of those velocities. Even higher sd, and at both velocities, you are obviously going to have slightly deeper penetration over a 148 grain bullet.
Now take a 110 grain lead bullet. LOW SD, at both of those velocities, it will penetrate far less than either round, and make a poor and shallow wound.
A hollow point or other expanding bullet's first and key role in wound ballistics is that it increases the SD upon impact. Now, the bullet can be fired at high velocities, heavy weights, and high sectional density, with higher momentum and KE figures, and not expend it's energy on the other side of a target. A 158 grain SWC in .357 will in many cases drive a hole through a target of bore diameter, through and through.
A hollow point that expands to .45" diameter will leave a wound larger than bore diameter, and will not penetrate through, wasting energy.
Penetration and wound size all depend on velocity and sectional density more than anything else. A 185 grain hard cast .357 magnum bullet at 800 fps will drill through a body like a piece of rebar in a tornado. a 185 grain high performing hollow point in .45 at that same velocity will create a far larger wound, but at the expense of deep penetration.
There is where the issue really lies. managing your SD and velocities, and the SD as it travels through the wound.
a high energy electron is called a beta particle. Last I heard, it takes trillions of them to cause a person any harm.
Granted, cranked up to near light speed, they become the death ray from the lhc, but in that case, you can't discount the fact that it is a charged particle. A neutrino with similar mass and no charge is nearly undetectable.
I'd stand against a wall and let people shoot high energy neutrinos at me all day without a fear.
Their SD sucks, too.
Granted, cranked up to near light speed, they become the death ray from the lhc, but in that case, you can't discount the fact that it is a charged particle. A neutrino with similar mass and no charge is nearly undetectable.
I'd stand against a wall and let people shoot high energy neutrinos at me all day without a fear.
Their SD sucks, too.
Something to consider is that for a given heavy / slow combination, there is some fast / light combination w/ an equivalent kinetic energy. Even if you add other dimensions, like penetration and the area of the wound cavity, to create a 'trauma' measurement, there will still be overlaps among bullet / weight / speed combinations. Also there is not a simple correlation among these properties - e.g. the penetration of a slower bullet may actually exceed that of a faster one if it's below the bullet's expansion threshold. So there's no one answer because there are actually multiple potential solutions. In practice there are combinations w/o equivalents, because bullet weights and geometries aren't continuous. But they're close enough that you're not going to get a definitive answer, except that heavy / fast is best and slow / light is worst.
I'm going for a compromise with a little of both. 
Out of my Glock 27 the Winchester Ranger T 165 gr. averaged 1,116 fps / 456# KE.
I think I would be satisfied with that for my previous post (scenario) about which load would you pick when the firing pin breaks unexpectedly after the first shot.
Out of my Glock 27 the Winchester Ranger T 165 gr. averaged 1,116 fps / 456# KE.
I think I would be satisfied with that for my previous post (scenario) about which load would you pick when the firing pin breaks unexpectedly after the first shot.
Big & Slow: The "safe" choice
Howdy,
While the venerable .357 Magnum cartridge is the undisputed King of the Hill for LE and SD, it has little worthy company in the "small and fast" category. The 9mm & .38 Sp. must rely on +P , excellent shot placement..and a little luck to be effective. The little used .357 SiG is the only other effective "Small & fast" cartidge I'd want in a SD scenario.
But consider the "Big & Slow" category: .44 Spl, .45 acp, .40, .41 Magnum, 10mm. The weakest of the bunch-the .44 Spl has Muzzle Energy ratings that equal the better 9mm +P loads! While the remainder of the "Big & Slow" are all very near the equal of the vaunted .357 Magnum, and with less recoil,less noise and lesser liklihood of overpenetration.
My choice in a "life or death" situation? That's easy, .357 Magnum.
Howdy,
While the venerable .357 Magnum cartridge is the undisputed King of the Hill for LE and SD, it has little worthy company in the "small and fast" category. The 9mm & .38 Sp. must rely on +P , excellent shot placement..and a little luck to be effective. The little used .357 SiG is the only other effective "Small & fast" cartidge I'd want in a SD scenario.
But consider the "Big & Slow" category: .44 Spl, .45 acp, .40, .41 Magnum, 10mm. The weakest of the bunch-the .44 Spl has Muzzle Energy ratings that equal the better 9mm +P loads! While the remainder of the "Big & Slow" are all very near the equal of the vaunted .357 Magnum, and with less recoil,less noise and lesser liklihood of overpenetration.
My choice in a "life or death" situation? That's easy, .357 Magnum.
CarbineCaleb
New member
I think that the anecdotal information is, even when it's true, of little use, because I've read enough to know that the results seem to be highly variable - so it's easy to read something into an observed change in effectiveness that's actually due to other factors than you've pinned it on. That includes the Marshall & Sanow data.
Personally, I think shot placement and controlled fast followups are #1 & #2. That means choose a light recoiling cartridge/gun combination. Furthermore, within a given cartridge, I think that you want something with 14-16" of gel penetration - at the higher end of the FBI suggestion, and that usually comes from higher sectional density bullets.
Personally, I think shot placement and controlled fast followups are #1 & #2. That means choose a light recoiling cartridge/gun combination. Furthermore, within a given cartridge, I think that you want something with 14-16" of gel penetration - at the higher end of the FBI suggestion, and that usually comes from higher sectional density bullets.
So, I can't see any downside to a big, heavy, bullet that penetrates lots.
unless it is travelling at you or something you care about.
what impedes penetratration???
hide thickness?? clothing layers?? structural barriers??
it seems to stop a living system with a bullet and not a 30mph several ton locomotive, surer penetration would be necessary for lethality.
if a sliding door and down coat could impede penetration from a slower heavier bullet where a faster lighter bullet could penetrate all the items better to damage human (or beast) systems then lighter and faster would seem preferable....weapon systems and shooter competence would then be as important.
i guess your question was geared toward defense scenarios.
unless it is travelling at you or something you care about.
what impedes penetratration???
hide thickness?? clothing layers?? structural barriers??
it seems to stop a living system with a bullet and not a 30mph several ton locomotive, surer penetration would be necessary for lethality.
if a sliding door and down coat could impede penetration from a slower heavier bullet where a faster lighter bullet could penetrate all the items better to damage human (or beast) systems then lighter and faster would seem preferable....weapon systems and shooter competence would then be as important.
i guess your question was geared toward defense scenarios.
Realisitcally, in defense against a human, it only matters with calibers under 9mm. 9mm and above has more than enough power to penetrate to even the deepest tissues in any person walking this planet, even body builders.
Bleeding a person out will just not happen, unless you stike a major artery, tissue, or blood reservoir. Hitting any of those relies on shot placement and/or luck. For example, if you hit someone in a extremity (hand, foot, ear), they will lose a lot of blood very fast. It will not be enough to incapacitate a person in any short amount of time, however, as it's not a vital area or a blood reservoir.
Shot placement is all that matters against a person with a caliber .38/9mm or higher.
If you don't like this statement, ask a trauma doctor, nurse, or EMT. You can also ask a human anatomy teacher.
Bleeding a person out will just not happen, unless you stike a major artery, tissue, or blood reservoir. Hitting any of those relies on shot placement and/or luck. For example, if you hit someone in a extremity (hand, foot, ear), they will lose a lot of blood very fast. It will not be enough to incapacitate a person in any short amount of time, however, as it's not a vital area or a blood reservoir.
Shot placement is all that matters against a person with a caliber .38/9mm or higher.
If you don't like this statement, ask a trauma doctor, nurse, or EMT. You can also ask a human anatomy teacher.
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