Slow and heavy or fast and light: requesting definite answer

I read all five pages and still didn't learn anything.
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If you read five more pages, you'd still get varying opinions.

A bullet needs to penetrate adequately and expand quickly in order to be effective. That can change from caliber to caliber with re: to heavy vs. fast.

For example, the heavy 147 gr. 9mm has always been at the bottom of the charts for "stopping power".

The heavy 230 gr. works very well in .45ACP.

I think the lighter bullets perform better in .40 caliber, but the heavy 180 gr. works.

The .357 developed it's reputation with the 125 gr. bullet. Not the 110 gr. that expanded too quickly, or the 158 gr. that over penetrated.

You've taken a discussion that should be caliber specific and turned it into a general debate for which there's no answer.:cool:
 
A medic's point of view

Having seen way more autopsies than I cared to, I would have to say that the wound channel created by the larger/slower bullets is much more impressive.

Okay. Ignore that for a minute. I have had literally dozens upon dozens of gunshot victims in the back of my rig over the years. After a careful review and follow-up of all my gunshot wound cases during my last ten years I would have to say that size, speed, and profile of the projectile don't mean as much as pure dumb luck.

It's really very simple. To get an effective one shot stop you must create one of two things. You must cause a complete disruption of the voluntary nervous system above the level controlling the upper extremities. or you must cause complete and immediate hemodynamic compromise.

Since neither one of these is possible 100% of the time I offer the following thoughts. When doing whatever interviewing was possible with the patient I found in the majority of cases these people would voluntarily stop what they were doing as soon as they realized they had been shot. Pain is a wonderful deterrent, and the heavier/slower calibers seemed to create a great deal more of it.

I once saw a drunk man almost kill the shooter with his fists after being gut shot 4 times with a 9mm. Two years later I saw the same man rolling on the ground screaming in pain after getting a .45 ACP ball through his right tricep.

To sum things up, if your intention is to stop the fight, and you can't be 100% sure of an immediately incapacitating shot, your best bet of taking the fight out of the bad guy seems to be the heavier yet slower rounds.
 
Actually, the question is "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?"

"I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe."
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Nnobby45 said:
For example, the heavy 147 gr. 9mm has always been at the bottom of the charts for "stopping power".

The heavy 230 gr. works very well in .45ACP.

I think the lighter bullets perform better in .40 caliber, but the heavy 180 gr. works.

The .357 developed it's reputation with the 125 gr. bullet. Not the 110 gr. that expanded too quickly, or the 158 gr. that over penetrated.

You've taken a discussion that should be caliber specific
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Where are you getting this nonsense from, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow?


Stopping power= "where you hit the person and how many times you can hit them"

~Dr Vincent DiMaio.

Bullet construction dictates overall bullet performance

Everything else is ancillary
 
HEAVY AND FAST 230gr. +p around 950fps is pretty fast. 185gr. +p at 1080fps is still heavy and even faster. Put out anywher from 467 to 518 ft/lbs with the best loads. I feel really comfortable with this :D.
 
For human targets I believe that the track record of 45 acp speaks for itself. At usual gunfight or close ranges speed doesn't have the chance to really shine as much as mass does IMO. The larger expanded diameter bullet stands a better chance of disrupting blood vessels and organ tissue than a smaller one.
 
In the long run is it really important? You get hit in a cross walk by a Ferrari at 110 your dead. You get hit by a 18 wheeler doing 55 you dead. One just got there a little faster. The one that works best for anyone is the one they can use best fat and light or big and slow. (Personally I tend to .45's auto or long colt. But don't turn up my nose at the 9m/m.)
 
I dont see why people can use both. I use .45 acp as a main weapon caliber but i also carry back ups in 9mm and .357 sig as well.
 
I use the 9mm as well and like it alot, especially Browning Hi-Powers. I just prefer the 45ACP over the 9mm and think it does the job a little better.
 
Bleeding out is not the fastest route to incapacitation, it may require anywhere from seconds to minutes to drain enough blood to incapacitate. Humans can lose massive amounts of blood and still be able to fight. It doesn't take much to pull a trigger.

Damaging structures of the central nervous system (CNS) is undeniably the fastest route.

Assuming shot placement is equal, the round must penetrate sufficiently to reach a depth to reach one of these vital structures, with enough energy to damage or destroy the structure.

Assuming shot placement is equal AND penetration is equal, a larger cross-sectional area (include expansion/fragmentation) will damage more tissue and have a greater chance of contacting more of the CNS structure.

So what's best, big & slow or small & fast? The answer is it doesn't matter as long as it is a sufficient combination to damage the CNS.

Personally, I trust my life to .45 ACP 230gr hardball, 10mm 135gr Nosler JHP, and 10mm 200gr FMJ-FP. That said, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357, .357 Magnum are all fine rounds, and have incapacitated many human beings over the years.
 
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