Shooting and Moving Practice-- In your house

[5whiskey]

Perfect training? a live-fire house with pop- up Ivans targets, but I know that isn't feasible for most people. I personally do the airsoft thing, most of the time setting up one fire-team as agressors or opfor and letting the other two teams clear the building. Almost everyone has their own airsoft at work, and this is a pretty cheap and easy method of training against moving, breathing, thinking targets. It's also the only time we don't train in full gear. I make them wear pt shorts and a skivie shirt, nothing else. That way you'll know from the d#$% or s%$^ whether they've been hit or not. I don't like training without full gear, but this is a special case.

Be advised, however, that my training doesn't focus that much on accuracy. It focuses mainly on tactics and techniques of their movement through the objective, and also geometry of fires. I'll be frank in saying that most of our marksmanship training is done through live-fire EMP and shoot houses. I like the treadmill training idea for marksmanship, though. I have never thought of doing that, so I learned something today. One more reason why FLF is here for us. I think it would be a great technique for someone that doesn't have the resources LE or military has. I have nothing against the dry firing with a laser sight, it seems like a good tool for some people who don't get to shoot dynamicly and clear an entire house or town. I really like the airsoft on a treadmill idea, also. I may incorperate that in my own training for skill maintanance. It also just sounds plain fun.

Last thing, I'm not knocking lasers. Especially on a pistol. On a rifle? questionable. The Marine Corps uses an infrared laser sight called a peq-2 or peq-4. It's only visible through NVGs. We honestly don't rely on it heavily to shoot with, but it is awesome to mark targets for close air support. It's great just to mark a target for your squad at night, as far as that goes. Lasers have their purpose, but they are not the be all end all.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go and set up my treadmill targets and go for a jog. Thanks for the input skyguy

 

[5whiskey]

One more thing I forgot to add.

colored ballons for target id while moving is an awesome drill. We spend alot of rounds doing that and I think it's very effective. Try shooting while moving laterally to your weak side, this is one of the hardest things to do.

And, whatever you do, don't forget to incorperate mag change drills on the move. Obviously you SHOULD keep track of your ammo and reload behind cover before you go dry, but to think that you react perfectly in this manner every time while getting shot at is absurd. Just practice it for an oh **** I got caught with my pants down contingency. I've seen too many Marines that will shoot on the move well and then stop and take a knee to reload. Incorperate mag changes in everything.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Very good thread guys

It is rare that we see so much agreement on the "fundamentals" of shooting on the move. I believe the people that are new to this can get an awful lot out of this thread. Even though I am not a big advocate of lazers, I am a big advocate on tailoring your tool bag and tactics to your specific situation. If lazers help you ......that is a great thing!

Here is some more info for the neewbies of movement. I posted this awhile ago in another thread, but I have refined it a bit to fit in this thread better. I believe that everyone should understand that there is a "movement continuum" just as there is a "sight continuum" (thanks to 7677.) So when you hear "see what you need to see".....remember there is also a "move as you need to move" and that these two continuums work along with each other inside of the "fight continuum."

What am I physically capable of?

I believe that there should be continuity to ones movement. I feel that one should train to get hits through the entire movement spectrum. There is no doubt about the importance of "stand and deliver" skills. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on this skill with tens of thousands of drawstrokes. If my body chooses this solution to the problem, that skill will be there.

I also see a need for very controlled movement that facilitates a precision "sighted" shot on the move. This could include skills such as "just walk", side stepping (crab walk,) or even the old groucho (duck) walk. All three of these techniques have there place (however small they might be) and should be something that you can do on demand, if that demand arises. I practice head shots at logical distances with this type of movement.

I also see a need to be able to get hits with your toes pointing the direction that you are moving. This type of movement has your upper body working independent from your lower body, "like a turret of a tank." Toes point the direction you are headed, body turreted the direction that you are shooting. This type of movement brings in your bi-lateral skills. Shooting to the firing side can be done two handed to a certain point, then you need to go one handed. The possible speed of this movement can cover the full spectrum, from a walk, to a jog, to a stride, to a run, and finally to a sprint. The amount of visual input that is used/needed is situationally dependent. This is where you find what you are physically capable of. This is where the limitations are pushed, and the standards are set.

Feints, jukes, cut backs and directional changes are also part of the movement skills set. One should explore there ability to use these skills and the limitations that different terrain/footing give you.

React as you need to react, move as you need to move, and see what you need to see to solve the problem that you are confronted with. If you train with these basic concepts, you will have covered the vast majority of the possible situations. In covering these situations, your body will chose, with confidence, the appropriate solution.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Visual Input in Regards to Shooting on the Move

When it comes to vision, I see things a little differently than a lot of other people. There is the necessary vision to make the shot (see what you need to see) and there is another aspect of vision that people tend to ignore. I believe that the body will choose the height and the extension of the gun due to the amount of vision that the brain will require to solve the entire problem.

The visual information that the brain requires is covered in my Fluid Situational Response.

The ability to make the hit.
The ability to ID the threat.
The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
The ability to have a field of vision to manuver through and around obstacles.
The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
The ability to eliminate visual interference or negative visual input.

In my opinion, the dynamics or the chaos of the encounter will dictate the height, the extension, the position, and whether you use one hand or two hands, in regards to your HG. This is why I feel so strongly about the ability to shoot throughout your draw stroke and from every angle and position. It is my opinon that this natural act (the body picking the best position so that the brain can take in the necessary visual information) is a much better idea than a conditioned act (always bring the gun to line of sight) that is not as well rounded or versatile and has many negatives connected with it.

I think that the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop. I could introduce anyone, to their natural ability to do this in a day or two.......and you would own that natural ability for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance.

I believe that natural abilities should go hand in hand with your conditoned abilities. If your conditoned abilities fail you (such as not being able to get to your line of sight) your natural abilities can take over. All your bases are covered due to being wellrounded, you just keep rolling right along.......as opposed to being flat sided.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321

 

[threegun]

Makes sense. When is the next course here in Florida?

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Threegun, I would love to come out to Florida and train. If you can get a group of guys together and secure a range, I would be happy to make the flight out there.

I will PM you my contact info if you want to discuss it.

 

[threegun]

Thanks. I'll see if I can get some of these old timers motivated into learning something progressive. They tend to be set in their ways. We'll see.

 

[Skyguy]

I'll see if I can get some of these old timers motivated into learning something progressive. They tend to be set in their ways.

Try not to be so dismissive of "old timers"....because what might seem "progressive" to you is likely old news re-labled and recycled. Point shooting, movement, etc has been around since long before your time.
What goes around comes around.

As for "set in their ways", many "old timers" have long ago figured out what best serves their needs. How many times can one learn the same things?

If you really care to impart "something progressive", pass along the 21st century tactic of utilizing the immediate tactical advantages of laser sights.

Tell them about the 'threat focused' advantages of sighting in low light, darkness, indoors...and tell them of the advantages of shooting with 'old eyes' from awkward positions over/under/around cover, moving or not.
.

 

[threegun]

Skyguy, I was joking about the old timers. My friends however have already analyzed the pro's and con's of lasers and like myself they don't see any tactical edge it could provide....yet. Maybe when they get real old and in need of vision assisting devises.

Try not to be so dismissive of "old timers"....because what might seem "progressive" to you is likely old news re-labeled and recycled. Point shooting, movement, etc has been around since long before your time.
What goes around comes around

The tactics offered by S'N'B are new to me. I have never seen or heard of anything like it before. My friends haven't either. Have you? If so, what was it called before and by whom? From everything I have researched in the past 15 years, nothing comes close. I have never heard of running in one direction and shooting behind yourself. I don't believe this is simple recycled material rather a new progressive tactic that (if it works) can seriously increase my odds of survival. I have always trained to move and shoot but in the traditional "half step" manner keeping my shooting platform stable while moving as quickly as possible toward cover. I have also shot competitions requiring running and gunning but again sideways and usually stopping or pausing to fire. Quick Kill is something that I have never seen before.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Makes sense.The tactics offered by S'N'B are new to me. I have never seen or heard of anything like it before

Thank you threegun for the ultimate compliment. That is exactly what I am trying to do. I have a lot of training and have always been amazed on how much of it was closed minded and did not make sense.

I try to avoid the "progressive" label. I would rather be labeled as the "open minded, common sense guy that looks at things from a different angle."

Did you get my E-mail?

 

[hso]

I just took the ITFTS course in Knoxville that Sweatnbullets has referred to.

After an hour with each technique I was putting all rounds within the central 4-6 inches of the target drawing from the holster and without using my sights. This was done as quickly as possible and we decreased the holster-to-hole time to less than a second. The techniques were practiced at ranges from 6 to 30 feet.

Movement while firing techniques were covered as well. I was able to maintain nearly the same accuracy and speed as the static techniques because we used them as a foundation, added multiple targets, then added movement. Movement included lateral, angled forward and back, looping flanking, charging, changing level (kneeling from movement and back to movement while firing)

I am not a former SEAL. I am not a competitive shooter.

I am a FMA and CB student, but I do not train rigorously.

I am over weight and out of shape and have had 3 knee surgeries to replace ACLs and clean up the cartilage and I'm wearing glasses now that I've crossed the 45 threshold.

I think the class gave me some life saving skills I did not have before and that I did not waste my money or my time.

My buddy that can't see the front sights without his glasses and can't clearly make out the holes in the target beyond 15 feet didn't need his glasses to do as well as I did.

I do agree that if you only could choose between training in H2H for contact range and this training your time would be better spent in the H2H because not every violent encounter will require the use of a handgun.

BUT, I do want to say that if you give a rat's ass about your own safety and carry a gun you should take this training and decide for yourself like I did instead of reading cat fights between competing trainers. I busted my hump to do the training and I think I learned things that could save my life some day.

 

[Skyguy]

I think the class gave me some life saving skills I did not have before and that I did not waste my money or my time.

All's well that ends well.

Sweatnbullets put it simply: "the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop."

Fortunately, most self defense handgun instructors teach point shooting tactics, movement and attendant exercises. The better ones use moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and absolutely train in low light, darkness.

I do agree that if you only could choose between training in H2H for contact range and this training your time would be better spent in the H2H because not every violent encounter will require the use of a handgun

Well said and right on! The problem is that it takes a lot more time, effort and skill to learn to effectively use hand to hand fighting.
Point shooting comes naturally.
.

 

[hso]

Skyguy,

Having taken the training I wouldn't say that "point shooting comes naturally". I think it takes instruction and practice. I know that point shooting techniques at ranges beyone 6 feet take instruction and that point shooting while moving obliquely away from a target takes instruction because I was there and it wasn't the easiest thing to just jump to from the previouse building block exercise.

I would agree with you if you had said "point shooting comes naturally after some brief instruction and lots of practice", but I think it's a gross oversimplification if you mean it's something anyone can just pick up and do without training.

As an interesting example of the problems of movement while firing and the benefits of ITFTS training, the buddy of mine that couldn't see the front sights without his glasses fell during one of the movement exercises. He had expended probably 10 out of 15 rounds when he fell to the side while moving towards the target. Amazingly, he fired the remaining 5 rounds while falling and they all hit the target! He hit the ground with a THUD with his gun slide locked and 15 holes in the target before he was half way to the ground! We didn't want to see if he could do it again.

 

[Skyguy]

I would agree with you if you had said "point shooting comes naturally after some brief instruction and lots of practice", but I think it's a gross oversimplification if you mean it's something anyone can just pick up and do without training.

Surely everybody has a different learning curve and I do agree that we all need to learn the basics.....but I have to agree with Sweatnbullets when he said: "the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop."

Glad you could pick up on the technique.

One question: Did your training include moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and more importantly, did you train in low light, darkness?
.

 

[stephen426]

Where are these classes offered and how much do they run? They sound pretty interesting. I'm sure moving affects a bad guy's ability to hit me, but if I can hit him while I am on the move, that would be a very valuable skill.

 

[hso]

Skyguy,

One question: Did your training include moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and more importantly, did you train in low light, darkness?

That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.

Since I'm not just any idiot I'll answer .

No.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given. If I spent this weekend learning the skills presented and I'm a good boy and practice so that I'm ready for the next class picking up those skills you listed should come too.

BTW - I've repeatedly trained with Simunitions against others in a dark shoot house and having had the basics under ITFTS I do believe it's possible to use ITFT to teach people to do what you suggest in a second level 2-day course.

Please remember that my buddy who can't see the front sights and can't see the holes in the target clearly still made COM hits while falling.

 

[Skyguy]

That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.

Sorry if I offended you. You just seemed so eager to talk about your training that I thought I could get more details about Quick Kill training.

Since targets are such an integral part of training and most gun encounters occur in low light and darkness, I needed to ask.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given.

There ya go. I didn't even know that there was a next level of Quick Kill training or that it uses the bladed, moving targets, etc and trains in low light/darkness.
Does that level cost $400 too?

Thanks for the heads up.
.

 

[hso]

Skyguy,

I'm not offended if you're not. I understand you're an advocate of lasers and it seems like you make your living off of training to them (at least in part). I'm just a guy who has taken some classes. So I'm not interested in the promotional games trainers get into.

I think the laser has a role in self defense shooting just like point shooting does and just like aimed shooting does. I'm just not one of those people that think there's only one universal right technique that can be applied to all situations. Where trainers make their mistakes and end up looking like jackasses to the guys who pay them is in trying to convince everyone that they have the one true faith that must be followed.

I've never trained with lasers. I have trained in aimed fire and I've now trained in point shooting. I think each does something that is best in certain applications. At ranges out to 15 to 21 feet I bet a good student trained in point shooting will put effective holes in the target quicker than either the aimed or laser student. I put holes on paper as fast as I could draw and point and I stake no claims at being a good student. At ranges from 21 to 30 feet I bet there will be a crossover point that the laser student will start to match and begin to beat the point shooting student for groups on time. I did fine all the way out to 24 to 27 feet. Beyond 30 feet I'd bet the laser student gets better groups just as fast as the point shooting student and the laser and aimed fire student begin their cross over with laser at some point soon after that. Each technique probably has it's "sweet spot" where it excells for each individual. The numbers I used are just estimations and would vary for each individual, but I bet an honest student that put the equivalent effort into each would see similar relationships.

Point shooting and laser aiming and aimed fire are all just tools that we can learn. The differences between laser and point shooting are probably very small when put into practice by someone trained in each (I guess I need to find a laser course to take now that I've said that so at least I'll know ). Where laser would depart significantly from point shooting would be around that 30 ft. point. Aimed fire is pretty different from either, but I know point shooting compliments it and I bet laser does as well (and I bet they all compliment each other).

What I liked about the ITFTS training is that it was never touted as a replacement for using the sights. It augemented defensive handgun shooting and used point shooting where it was strongest and didn't try to compete where sights were a stronger technique. That makes a good training system to me.

Like I said, I'm just an average schmo that took the ITFTS course this weekend in Knoxville that's had some other training. I was told that the next level contained a bunch of stuff we didn't do that included some of what Skyguy wants to see done. I've done shoot house and FOF in shoot house and FOF in shoot house in low/no light with simunitions and all the things we've talked about and I hope the next level of ITFTS includes that, but I just don't know for sure. But I'll ask.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Where are these classes offered and how much do they run? They sound pretty interesting. I'm sure moving affects a bad guy's ability to hit me, but if I can hit him while I am on the move, that would be a very valuable skill.

Hello Stephen, I am located in Vegas, brownie is located in Phoenix, 7677 is located in Ohio, and Steve2267 is located in Denver. We can also come to you if you get a group together.

The dynamic movement aspect of the course is what I brought to the party, so if that is what you are interested in......VEGAS BABY!

The group courses run $400 and the private courses are a bit higher.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Sorry guys, I do not even read skyguys posts anymore. He has had it in for all of us Threat Focused guys for some time now. He has sent us a number of PM's stating how much fun he has "baiting" us in an effort to destroy our business. Positive AAR's like these send him back to his baiting ways everytime.

"Here fishy fishy"

He is a non-entity to us and someone that will continue to harass us as long as he is allowed to.

Sooooo, how about if we get back on topic. For the guys that took the time to read "Shooting To Live" found here.http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

Here is a little something to go along with your new FAS PSing skills.

Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why threat focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

There are many elements that go into accurate threat focused shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

(1)Kinesthetic alignment

(2)Sight alignment

(3)Sight picture

This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.


Now let us look at the elements of threat focus shooting.

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline or as 7677 calls it, the nose index.

(6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(7) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

(9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why threat focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why threat focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural human response.

******************************************************************************

There is a lot of misconception out there that threat focused shooting and especially FAS, is stance or position dependent. This is just not the case. "Shooting to Live" and "Bullseyes don't Shooot Back" cover the basics of threat focus shooting, nothing more.

The basics elements are as follows,

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(6) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

The advanced elements take threat focus shooting to a whole other level, this is where you begin to make hits from any position, from any angle, with no conscious thought.

(1) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline, or what 7677 calls, your nose index.

(2) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(3) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(4) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

The tenth element (absolute confidence) is the key and the ultimate goal. You can never reach your full potential until you a firm grasps of the basic elements and an absolute understanding of the advanced elements.