Shooting and Moving Practice-- In your house

[Skyguy]

That would be running away, without firing a shot. That is what skyguy suggests as being the best method. I on the other hand disagree

Correction. I never said that.
My exact words were: "As I've said before, there are times to move/run and there are times to stand and shoot."

As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.

And for the record: As a proud Sky Soldier, I can hardly disagree with most of your commonly held shootout tactics or even your gun games, but.........as an instructor, you fail to address some important qualifiers.

1. Distance, which controls the tactic.
2. A moving, thinking, shooting opponent.
3. The sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications.
4. The age and physical condition of the actors.

Get busy on that!
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[pwrtool45]

. My basement is pretty big so the targets were between 5-20 feet away. When I was walking or jogging slowly, I averaged I say about 55%-60% hit on a 10" target- worse off to the side maybe 35%-40%. But when I was running that dropped to probably less than ten percent. These were also stationary targets and I knew where they were and I was taking time in between shots. I want to try to make a contraption that swings or something

I believe it was the match before last at the local IDPA club where we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move. There were lots of -1s and -3s, but I don't believe anyone actually got a FTN. I think most people even hit it with all 3 rounds.

It's not easy, but it is doable with a bit of practice.

 

[Skyguy]

we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move.

Curious here.

What was the speed of.....and distance to the target? And what was the prescribed movement? Forward, laterally, angled, pursuit, retreat, etc.

.

 

[pwrtool45]

The speed of the cart matched the speed of the shooter. Most took it at a moderate-to-fast walk. Anyone who failed to move and shoot (ie, stopping for a shot) was given a PE. Distance was maybe 21 feet. to the target. Movement was angled away from the shooter in the same direction.

It was a fun stage. Movers usually are.

 

[threegun]

Skyguy,

As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.

For starters you are well aware that my position is to move while engaging the bad guy. I had never even considered giving my back to the bad guy until S'n'B described his technique. The bank video is not proof that movement doesn't equals safety rather it is proof that failing to place your opponent under duress makes him shoot like Wild Bill.

When your number is called you crouch and fire and hope for mutual wounding or death. I'm gonna retreat/move to cover while engaging the threat just like I have trained. If I ever get to S'n'B's class maybe I will run like a Ethiopian duck while shooting LOL. Bottom line is I ain't standing still while rounds are incoming (unless behind cover of course) that just isn't logical.

 

[Mikeyboy]

Arrrgghh that video again!!! What does that knucklehead have to do with movement and shooting. I will comment no further on the video to keep the thread open. 99% of the time in a home defense situation you are only going to move a few feet while shooting simply because of the enviroment your in. Your either going to be moving behind a wall, or crouching behind a piece of furniture, moving closer or backing away from the BG. Your not running and shooting out in some open field with little cover. Your shots will stink as it is, since to a HD situation you will be stressed out and your heart will be racing, moving will just make your shooting even worse. If possible I would take a defensive position in the house, protecting your family and ambush the guy, instead of moving around looking for the a burglar, and having him ambush you.

I do have a thought on how to train for moving around in the house and engaging BGs. I have not tried it yet (waiting for the next B-day party) but I thought of getting a few helium filled balloons and putting them in various places in the house, maybe even tie a few to my kids toys to make them move around, and just try to go thru the house shooting them with my airsoft pistol. If it works (not sure if the balloons will pop) it is a good skill exercise and a way to get an idea of good and bad shooting position around my house.

P.S. I will clean up the mess afterwards springmom

 

[threegun]

Helium filled balloons also offer erratic motion from air flow especially if a fan is on. They are great targets indoors or out when you want to practice against something other than stationary cardboard bad guys. In the proper area they allow you to practice lateral movement yet still have a full target (being three dimensional).

 

[Skyguy]

This is an absolutely crucial tactics video of some of the world's finest trainers in action.
They advise on training, low light, movement and the immediate tactical advantages of Lasergrips.

Listen, look and learn from true Master Trainers; the real deal.
If you can't learn from this, you can't learn.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv
.

 

[threegun]

Skyguy, What does that video have to do with shooting on the move? Besides what they aren't telling you is that your brains reaction time from finding the dot, confirming its correct position, and pulling the trigger is almost a second. If they fire faster than that they were just point shooting with a laser on the target. Just like when I get on the steel. I get sight alignment on the first plate then fly point shooting mostly. If I miss I get a flash front sight and go again. No laser will help here as I have tried. If I use the laser my times suffer. If I use my sights my time is similar to the laser. There might be some use for the laser but I have found them to be close to useless with the negatives out weighting any positives. Nite sights and a tac light are totally different animals.

 

[stephen426]

Skyguy, What does that video have to do with shooting on the move? Besides what they aren't telling you is that your brains reaction time from finding the dot, confirming its correct position, and pulling the trigger is almost a second. If they fire faster than that they were just point shooting with a laser on the target. Just like when I get on the steel. I get sight alignment on the first plate then fly point shooting mostly. If I miss I get a flash front sight and go again. No laser will help here as I have tried. If I use the laser my times suffer. If I use my sights my time is similar to the laser. There might be some use for the laser but I have found them to be close to useless with the negatives out weighting any positives. Nite sights and a tac light are totally different animals.

I'm not sure if we were watching the same video based on your post. Aimed fire using the sights, while on the move is very difficult. Traditional aimed fire calls for focus to be on the front sight. It is hard to maintain situational awareness when your if focus is about a foot from your face. As most have mentioned, moving and shooting is most effectively done with point shooting rather than sight aimed fire. Having the extra confirmation that you are on target from a laser sight allows you to concentrate on the target. I think it was quite clear, from the video, that a laser greatly aids in aiming without the sights. It further demonstrated, at least to me, that having the laser made shooting on the move much more accurate.

I think I'm convinced and am going to place my order for a Lasermax Laser right now. I like the fact that there are no external changes that could snag or add bulk.

 

[threegun]

Stephen,

As most have mentioned, moving and shooting is most effectively done with point shooting rather than sight aimed fire. Having the extra confirmation that you are on target from a laser sight allows you to concentrate on the target.

My point is that to confirm anything using a laser there is a delay involved. In order to confirm that your aim is true with the red dot the delay is about a second. You might believe the video and thats cool. I have tried both ways and cannot hit as fast if I use the laser. In fact I found the laser to be harder to hit fast with, more-so than with conventional sights although slightly. If you learn to point shoot, the laser will slow you down if you use it.

Then you have the downside. Reliance on a battery powered piece of hardware. The red light coming from your gun giving your opponent a target. Plus the above mentioned slowing of your rate of effective fire due to reaction time. The laser is not for me.

Aimed fire using the sights, while on the move is very difficult.

We agree here. So don't use aimed fire. Learn to point shoot close in and impose your front sight only on the target at further distances. Both are fairly easy to become proficient at. Both also solve the awareness problem since your focus is on the target most of the time.

 

[Blackwater OPS]

Here is a random but good topic related image:

 

[Skyguy]

Like I said Stephen, if you can't learn from that video, you can't learn.
Good move. Get one and you'll never look back.

The video has some of the world's finest trainers. They're not just gun game-players on an internet message board, they're actual master trainers?.highly sought after professional instructors. They've put their credibility and their reputations on the line.

Here are some relevant quotes from a few of those master trainers:

"Where it really started to shine for me was in a more dynamic situation." ? Ernie Langdon?..IDPA Champion, Marine vet, International Trainer

"It is a low light fighting instrument primarily." - Bob Taubert..?Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert

"A tool I don't want to be without" - Mike Dalton?..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion

FYI, here's another video that shows some laser training and defense techniques:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

 

[oldbillthundercheif]

This is a great excuse to get on the treadmill! All of your conversations about whether or not you can hit something while moving are academic. I know I can hit things while moving because I do it all the time at the FOP range when I am the only one there. The "fight to cover" drill is my favorite. I have gotten good at it.
I need someone to throw M-80s at me while I train, I bet that would make it more challenging. Any volunteers?
I tend to walk with a smooth sidestep, though. Hitting anything at a full run is another thing entirely. Is there a competition event that uses these skills? Some sort of baiathalon without stopping to shoot? All I know is the bianchi "mover" drills I did the other day were entertaining. I want more.

 

[threegun]

Skyguy, The picture you displayed is humorous. You have a homeowner behind CONCEALMENT not cover, giving away his position with a bright red light coming from his gun. Of course using the laser also makes him slower to fire since visual conformation takes time. If you train at all making that shot simply point shooting is not difficult. Being concealed you would be better served using your sights for aimed fire. The second you turn on the laser your location is compromised.

You intend on crouching and firing hoping for mutual wounding or death anyway so giving up your position is of no concern correct?

 

[Skyguy]

Skyguy, The picture you displayed is humorous. You have a homeowner behind CONCEALMENT not cover, giving away his position with a bright red light coming from his gun. Of course using the laser also makes him slower to fire since visual conformation takes time. If you train at all making that shot simply point shooting is not difficult. Being concealed you would be better served using your sights for aimed fire. The second you turn on the laser your location is compromised.

Thanks for your input Threegun, I'll address each of your concerns...for free.

The picture is only meant to illustrate the effectiveness of being able to very 'accurately' index the target without alignment of your eyes to the sights/nightsights....while also being able to scan the area. This is especially good for misplaced glasses and old eyes.

Point shooting works too, but it is much less effective than a laser in low light and darkened conditions. Both are threat focus techniques.

There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not.
That's a myth. Ask any master trainer or just review the master trainers' video. http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Although the laser does show somewhat and only from certain angles, it is harder for a threat to get a hit on the defender's body because the laser can very 'accurately' index the target in many ways. e.g. out to the side, overhead, under/over/around furniture, walls, etc. (refer to video tactics) http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

The use of white light to observe an intruder definitely gives up your location no matter what flashlight technique is used.
Using the white light 'intermittently' in conjunction with the 'intermittent' use of the laser is an effective tactic.

As for your 'cover' vs 'concealment' issue, we all know that 'cover' is next to impossible in a house so we must learn to use 'concealment' to advantage.

Like it or not, in dire circumstances, we have to immediately seek and settle for 'concealment' .
Bullets easily go through uncertain 'cover' like furniture, walls, doors, etc.

You intend on crouching and firing hoping for mutual wounding or death anyway so giving up your position is of no concern correct?

Trapped in a home defense shooting scenario, there are few options other than crouch, conceal and shoot. Running is out, movement is 'iffy', both compromise accurate shooting.
The muzzle flash will give away one's position anyway, making the defender subject to hits.
Hardly the best situation, but that's the way it is.

Hope this info helps you.
.

 

[threegun]

Skyguy,

There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not.
That's a myth. Ask any master trainer or just review the master trainers' video.

Unless you are not human or super human there is a delay called reaction time. This is the time it takes your brain to register that the red dot is on target and send the signal to pull the trigger. We all suffer from this delay. The only way around it is to reduce the amount of signals going from the senses to the brain and back. With point shooting you raise and fire. With laser or sighted fire your have to visually confirm the correct positioning of either........causing the delay. Use of the laser in the picture you posted gives the bad guy a better chance of locating you. Way better than an instantaneous muzzle flash. The point is if you are capable of hitting without the laser, you are better off not using it.

As for your 'cover' vs 'concealment' issue, we all know that 'cover' is next to impossible in a house so we must learn to use 'concealment' to advantage.

So turn on a red light prior to shooting an intruder armed with a gun. If you don't shoot fast enough, miss, have the cartridge fail to instantly stop, etc you have given the bad guy a red dot to shoot at and usually you are behind it.

BTW, You didn't expect Crimson Trace to publish anything anti laser did you?

 

[stephen426]

Unless you are not human or super human there is a delay called reaction time. This is the time it takes your brain to register that the red dot is on target and send the signal to pull the trigger. We all suffer from this delay. The only way around it is to reduce the amount of signals going from the senses to the brain and back. With point shooting you raise and fire. With laser or sighted fire your have to visually confirm the correct positioning of either........causing the delay. Use of the laser in the picture you posted gives the bad guy a better chance of locating you. Way better than an instantaneous muzzle flash. The point is if you are capable of hitting without the laser, you are better off not using it.

So turn on a red light prior to shooting an intruder armed with a gun. If you don't shoot fast enough, miss, have the cartridge fail to instantly stop, etc you have given the bad guy a red dot to shoot at and usually you are behind it.

threegun... would you stop long enough to think about your arguements?

First of all, sighted fire takes time as well. We are not dealing with a SWAT situation where we have to guess which laser is ours. If you are already used to point shooting, the laser will just be visual confirmation on the area you are already focused on. The laser gives you the advantage of shooting from non-traditional positions (possibly cover or concealment) that make point shooting difficult. If you miss with point shooting, you cover is blown anyways. Do you think a little red light is going to be that much more obvious than a loud report and a bright muzzle flash? I would rather my first shot hit home and injure or kill the attacker rather than spraying hot lead all over the place. That is how innocent people get killed. I am a fan of point shooting but the laser gives me the ability to confirm my point of aim. I will still practice point shooting in case the laser fails me, but if you take care of your equipment, it will take care of you.

Besides, if it convinces the bad guy to give up the fight without having to fire a shot, that is even better. I'm not going to count on it but if it works... great. If it doesn't, I will have a confirmed point of aim to put a shot into his chest. In a dark room, the bad guy may not see that you are also armed. If you challenge him (I know this is the topic of another thread), you still give up your position. That leaves you little choice but to shoot someone that may not be a real threat.

 

[johnnymenudo]

When you shoot while moving you have to change your method of running. Typical running involves a lot of up and down body movement and this makes it very hard to engage targets. If you want to only be able to shoot at certain points in your stride, the typical run will work. If you want to be able to shoot at any point while running you have to learn to run like Groucho Marx. Don't laugh. When Groucho would walk he would do this kind of odd elongated fast strides while keeping the upper body still. Thats the best way to shoot while moving fast.

The fake moustache and glasses are optional.

JM

 

[threegun]

Stephen426,

threegun... would you stop long enough to think about your arguments?

Yep. Better yet I have used a laser and own an M6.

First of all, sighted fire takes time as well.

Yep as noted in my post.

If you are already used to point shooting, the laser will just be visual confirmation on the area you are already focused on.

If you don't wait for the confirmation you are point shooting. I you wait for the confirmation you just added reaction time. If you are looking at the dot you are not completely focusing on the threat anyway.

If you miss with point shooting, you cover is blown anyways. Do you think a little red light is going to be that much more obvious than a loud report and a bright muzzle flash?

It stays on while muzzle flash is gone between shots. Fire a gun in a room with you eyes closed and tell me were it is coming from to within the size of a person.

Gotta run will finish post latter.