Shooting and Moving Practice-- In your house

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When you shoot while moving you have to change your method of running.
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That is what has been believed for years, but it is just not so. We teach our students to make hits on a full run, with no running method change. They get consistant thoracic cavity hits as fast as they can pull the trigger.

Don't believe me, check the links that were supplied. Our students learn to do what most people think is impossible in one or two days. Once you have the knowledge, you will own the skill for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance. It will work with every one of your handguns and you need not add on an expensive device to them all.

The brain is the weapon, a laser is just a tool.
 
For those that want to take their firearms skills as far as they can be taken, in regards to shooting on the move. You simply can not reach the highest levels if you do not learn threat focused skills. Quick Kill (QK) is the centerpiece to this level of expertice.

Here is the link to the QK description. This is just the starting point. If you pay attention and want to kleen the knowledge, you can see enough here to realize that this skill is very different and allows you to do things that were otherwise believed to be imposssible.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46

This one skill can be used on every gun you own and every gun you may ever use. Right now I have eight guns that have a certain niche in my self defense plan. The cost of putting a laser on all eight would be astronomical. I spent less than $200 dollars to learn QK. Not only is it great with a handgun, the skill really excels with long guns too.
 
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While were talking about shooting and moving, and in house training.
what about simunitions?
Couldn't a guy use these for the same purpose?
Granted it may be difficult to set-up but is it possible?
 
Simunitions would be great....if you have access (usually LEO only) and if you can afford them. A quality Airsoft is just as good.....available to the general public....and inexpensive as all heck.
 
Simunitions would be great....if you have access (usually LEO only) and if you can afford them. A quality Airsoft is just as good.....available to the general public....and inexpensive as all heck.
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That's true...I was just thinking that simunitions would be as close to the real thing as a guy could get...although I guess a replica paintball gun could do it too...Probably feel more realistic too...
 
For the umpteenth time:

Close distances are best handled with point shooting.....but, the laser sight is very accurate at distances
where point shooting begins to fail; about 21 feet.

Lasers overwhelmingly trump both point and sighted shooting in low light, darkness and from awkward positions!
Laser sights excel for old or weak eyes and threat focused shooting.
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Threegun,

I am afraid that we will have to agree to disagree. One very important consideration before you damn laser sights to the junk bin... How much time and practice does it take to become proficient at point shooting. How often does one need to practice to maintain this level of proficiency? Having a laser is not an excuse for laziness, but many of us does not get to go to the range as often as we want due to time constraints. Should be be at a disadvantage because of it? I would rather take that extra split second to confirm where my gun is pointed than spray hot lead in hopes of hitting the bad guy. The is especiallt true if there are bystanders. I would already be at a disadvantage since I doubt the bad guy gives a crap if he hits bystanders.

We agree that point shooting is probably the fastest, but it is not the most accurate. I will practice more with my airsoft and hopefully my wife won't shoot me when she finds little plastic pellets all over the place. :eek: :p I willing to bet I'll probably miss quite often in the beginning.
 
Skyguy,

but, the laser sight is very accurate at distances
where point shooting begins to fail; about 21 feet.
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Sights are just as accurate and won't compromise your position. The exception being those as you have indicated that cannot, for whatever reasons, use conventional systems or tactics. Why use a laser if it makes you slower to fire, compromises your position, and adds yet another thing which could fail in the time of need? About the only advantage, for the healthy among us, is the ability to shoot from awkward positions.

For the umpteenth time:
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You never once mentioned anything about point shooting beginning to fail at 21 ft.

Thanks for your input Threegun, I'll address each of your concerns...for free. :)
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Thank you your highness. Please address this one.

There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not. That's a myth.
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How about reaction time?


Stephen, I own a laser. An M6 laser/tac light combo. As for point shooting requiring tons of practice.............it doesn't for me. Remember you aren't looking for quarter sized group rather COM hits as fast as possible. When facing an armed adversary I believe that it is more important to be fast with a good center hit than slower with a great center hit.
 
threegun,

I just installed my LaserMax on my Glock 26 yesterday. I unloaded it and did a little point shooting practice. I would pick an object in the room, bring the gun up as quickly as possible, then switch on the laser. It turns out that I am decent at point shooting. My shots would have landed within 8 inches of my point of aim from as much as 20 feet away. I must tell you that the whole delayed reaction thing is over stated. We are probably talking about less than a tenth of a second in reality.

threegun, you can do what you like, but I'm going to take a gamble and risk that one tenth of a second to ensure I hit what I am aiming at. If were are talking about a practically negligable amount of time, a slightly slower well placed hit is better by far than a fast miss. Like I mentioned, there are innocent bystanders to think of and you still give away your position because of the report and the muzzle flash.

What is your opinion about lasers that have pressure switches that can be turned on and off instantaneously? Does that reduce your concern about giving away your position. The Lasermax is pretty easy to turn on and off. The way I see it though, with one well placed shot (preferably between the eyes), giving away your position is a moot point.

threegun said:
As for point shooting requiring tons of practice.............it doesn't for me.
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threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?

If you can't see any reasoning to my point after all this, we will just have to agree to disagree. Peace! ;) :D
 
Stephen, Congrats on your new laser.To answer some of your concerns

and you still give away your position because of the report and the muzzle flash.
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It is much better to give those away after the bullet is launched not before.

What is your opinion about lasers that have pressure switches that can be turned on and off instantaneously?
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don't like them.

threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?
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Thats just it.......I can hit point shooting without being a phenom. You can to and faster than with the laser. At ranges to far for accurate point shooting just us your sights.

I must tell you that the whole delayed reaction thing is over stated. We are probably talking about less than a tenth of a second in reality.
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Its 2/5ths of a second for reaction time.

Listen Stephen I am at the point that my skills are great, my equipment is great, etc. so all I have left is to developer better tactics and to do all faster. To the beginner 2/5ths is nothing. For me it is tremendous. Those 4 tenths might save my life or my families live you know? So back to square one why would I want to shoot slower and give away my position faster. Your money would have been better spent at the range IMO.

The only reason I own a laser/light combo is because I wanted the tac light and a dual unit came up for sale at my job for half the cost of new. I went ahead and bought the dual unit since it was such a good deal.
 
threegun,

Its 2/5ths of a second for reaction time.
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Where does this statistic come from? Anyone can quote statistics. Don't forget that statistics take the average reaction time. What if mine are faster?

We have ignored a critical point in this arguement. Does having a laser sight increase the chances of the bad guy surrendering without having to fire a shot? I'm sure there is some evidence to supprt this based on actual data collected by police officers.

What about sighted fire? If you are focused on the front sight which is a foot in front of your face, what does that do to your peripheral vision? What if there is more than one threat?

What about the ability to shoot from cover or awkward angles when sighted fire is not possible? What about shooting off hand, say if your shooting hand gets injured. I'm betting it is much more accurate to shoot with a laser off hand if you don't practice off hand shooting much.

The main thing is I have the option to use or not use my laser sight. I doubt that you can honestly say that there is absolutely no use for a laser. To have it available is a benefit. Who knows? I may get in a situation where I need to draw and fire so quickly that I may not even have time to activate the laser. That is why I will still practice point shooting.
 
I forgot one more facet to this whole giving away your position arguement... What if it the bad guy already knows where you are at because the lights are on or you are outdoors? The whole cover aspect goes out the window.

If you challange first before shooting, your position will also be compromised. Do you shoot first and then ask questions later? That was the topic of another thread.

I just thought I'd throw another monkey wrench into your arguement. :p :D
 
Anybody with basic skills can adequately point shoot close up; 15 ft or less.
Close point shooting-threat focused shooting is as simple as pointing at the target.
BUT, as the distance increases the accuracy degrades dramatically.

Regardless of the fantastic claims of 'deadly accuracy' out past a car length, the reality is that under stress even a practiced point shooter will miss a harmless stationary, paper com many more times than he will hit it.
That is so common that it seems silly to say, but that is reality.

We recently had a 73 year old woman shoot an intruder 3 times...she didn't miss. She's not a practiced shooter, just a scared old lady point shooting defensively.

Point shooting beyond 20 ft or so, whether daylight, dusk, low/no light, indoors or from awkward positions, under/over/around cover is a crap shoot at best.
A laser sight in the same situations 'dominates' point or sight shooting.

As the distance increases, accuracy with a laser remains excellent. I've proven that many times to the chagrin of more than a few range commandos. :)

Simple fact: just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot.
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Skyguy said:
Simple fact: just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot.
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While I agree with pretty much everything else you said, the part that I quoted above is not entirely true. Even with a laser, good trigger control is critical. I honestly feel that the misses that occur during high stress situations is not a matter of sight picture or even bad pointing shooting. I bet a large part of it is due to poor trigger control, most likely brought upon by the stress. Jerking, flinching, and anticipating also severely affect point of impact. I fyou can keep those items under control, you will most likely hit your target and not some innocent bystanders.

Then again, maybe that is what you meant by the quotes around the "will" hit that spot. ;) :D
 
I've been following this thread very closely that Radiki started but he got lost in the shuffle somewhere as most of the replies have been by four or five members who seem to really know what they are talking about and have been very well trained on this subject.

I am certainly no expert but I have to agree with Skyguy when he said, the reality is that under stress even a practiced point shooter will miss a harmless stationary, paper com many more times than he will hit it. That is so common that it seems silly to say, but that is reality.

I have never shot at anyone in civilian life but I have in combat and in combat misses usually don't count as you just keep on "rocking & rolling" til you get the job done. I have come close to drawing my firearm in civilian life and my heart was "pounding" out of my chest but thankfully the threat was neutralized. I'm sure I could have hit my mark but it's a lot different then shooting at paper.

I've stated before that one should be proficient at point shooting before they even think about using a handgun for personal protection. A laser site can help one shoot better in certain conditions but should not be solely relied on. There was a reference to the split second longer that it takes to acquire the target with a laser then with point shooting. Well if that's indeed true and that tiny 1/10 of a second or what ever it was makes a difference, then you're already in trouble.

Of course this is only my opinion.
 
threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?
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Stephen, If you still think that "spray and pray" has anything to do with point shooting, you really need to get some point shooting training. Threat focused skills are just like most skills, they are best when you have been trained properly.

Threat focused skills are gross motor skills, using one natural abilities. The degradation of these skills is significantly less than sighted fire under stress.

Sighted fire is a fine motor skill using a conditioned ability. This is the skill that degrades to "spray and pray." It usually degrades because of the lack of any threat focused skills or training. When sighted fire is not possible, the user has no other skills to fall back on.

This is why I advocate training with your natural abilities and your condition abilities. This is the only way to have all of your bases covered.
 
Thank you SnB

For getting the bloody thread back on topic. This is supposed to be about dynamic shooting, not on how great lasers are or how much the suck. Radiki, great job with the whole treadmill airsoft practice. Their are a few good minds here with some good ideas to share, and your idea was one of the reasons for this forum. To all, God Bless and have a good one.
 
oh yeah

Threegun, Skyguy, and the rest (I can't remember). I'm not knocking you, so don't take it personal. You all bring up valid points, but just try sticking with the topic of the thread. The laser thing wasn't completely off the topic untill it turned into an argument over reaction time, spray and pray, point shooting, ect. Granted, these are all incorperated in dynamic shooting, you know as well as I that the focus drifted a little off subject some time ago. Again, please take no offense
 
Thanks for the constructive criticism Wheeler, but I missed your recommendations on how to train indoors for shooting on the move.

My simple solution for the average gunowner is to use a laser sight, because they work. The laser dot shows the POI while you're moving. It helps to understand the dynamics of a moving operator and the relative position of the POI.

For example, I can hold the laser dot on a target, dryfire a few times...all the while moving in different ways on a treadmill. Without the laser dot verification at the moment of dryfire, I wouldn't have a clue where the POI would be. Especially in bad lighting.

The laser indexes accurately on the target/threat in all lighting, from cover and from awkward angles. It is a superb training tool as is testified to by a myriad of master trainers.
Even the USMC uses lasers for certain scenarios.

I have to say that all of my training and experiences came before the availability of the common laser sight. That's probably why I'm so blown away by their superb and immediate tactical-training advantages.

What would you recommend as an indoor training regimen for shooting while moving?
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