Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection

Nobody was saying that the shooting wasn't clean. The point is that the "attack" was just verbal and posturing at the point that Goetz started shooting. It wasn't much of an attack. Just because some of the "attackers" had weapons really doesn't come into play just like two of the people in the pawn shop had guns that didn't come into play.

If you are going to take weapons not coming into play into consideration, then obviously this gun battle was between two armed robbers and THREE armed pawnbrokers, not that the two male pawnbrokers ever showed, deployed, or used their revolvers in the battle. However, that ups the stakes to 15 rounds and 3 revolvers.

So the bad guys were outgunned during the entire fight, only they never knew it and still kept firing even after the old lady was out of ammo and down after being struck.
 
Excellent!

Grandma with a j-frame blisters a pair of thugs.

Probably spoiled their holidays, too.

Good shooting!
 
So the bad guys were outgunned during the entire fight, only they never knew it and still kept firing even after the old lady was out of ammo and down after being struck.
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Great points so far. I disagree that the bad guys were outgunned for reasons of technicality. A gun not introduced when needed is not a gun...fired or not. Just a totally useless piece of metal mixed with some gun powder, a primer and likely some lead and plastic or wood (depending on gun models of course). Like an ambulance showing up to a heart attack victim without a defibrillator the paramedic is likely useless without it.
 
She did great period. I used to live in that area and most of the pawn shop business is some guy pawning his wedding ring for the week and getting it back come payday. Small time stuff and good people.

She did better that Saturday morning than most all of us could have.
 
I've worked at several gun shops... They call had a door button. I can't even begin to remember the amount of people we didn't let in cause of the way they carried themselves. Even kicked a ton out after off remarks.

We got hit two times too.

Ol' girl did good.
 
Great points so far. I disagree that the bad guys were outgunned for reasons of technicality. A gun not introduced when needed is not a gun...fired or not. Just a totally useless piece of metal mixed with some gun powder, a primer and likely some lead and plastic or wood (depending on gun models of course).
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That was sort of my point, Wreck-n-Crew. A big deal was being made about how Goetz took out 4 armed attackers, only the screwdriver weapons were not used to threaten Goetz or even known about by Goetz. So they were really a non-issue. If you give that sort of credit to Goetz for going against armed attackers, then you have to do the same with the pawn shop...and it just seems a bit silly.
 
I'd have to say the store employees were incredibly lucky to run into such bumbling robbers; if that semi had worked, there would be some people dead or badly wounded. While I give kudos to the woman for fighting back and actually hitting one of the thugs while one-handing that snubbie, if I worked in a pawnshop, especially one where guns were sold, if it was legal I'd be belt-carrying something a bit more substantial -- and I'd make sure I was trained to use it. Nobody knows what they'll do until they are actually under fire, but lying on the floor is probably a bad idea ... I've never been shot at, and I might be lying on the floor next to those clerks, but there are better ways to defend your store ... also agree that the snubbie is not the solution to this situation; five rounds for two armed shooters doesn't go very far.

At the LGS I frequent, there are always at least two counter workers, both belt-carrying 15+ semis ... I love watching how they work; they both pay attention when the front door opens and if you come in with your hood up or your hands in your pockets, they are both on guard until the hood comes down and the hands come out ... as far as I know, they have never been robbed.
 
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If I were them I would have a button that would lock the door,in case of a shoot out,that way I could insure that I could kill them,an make it harder for perpss to getaway even if I was shot.
6 guns in pockets or pants is a no no
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Bad train of thought in civilian life. No Bueno. With cyber police being all around. This post could and will be used against you in the court of law. I suggest a nice "delete" and a proper training in self defense.
 
Lets think abou this:
She gets a better hit on the guy and he does down.
What are the chances the other guy flees?
Significantly lower.
A great deal more legal trouble.
She got a PERFECT hit in this situation.

A book of collectible coins isn't light. It probably hit her pretty hard. She didn't appear to be on balance getting behind that cover.

The two guys were par for the course as were the robbers.
She did extremely well.
Both the men probably owe her their life.
 
That was sort of my point, Wreck-n-Crew. A big deal was being made about how Goetz took out 4 armed attackers, only the screwdriver weapons were not used to threaten Goetz or even known about by Goetz. So they were really a non-issue. If you give that sort of credit to Goetz for going against armed attackers, then you have to do the same with the pawn shop...and it just seems a bit silly.
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Ditto...it is silly!
 
The Jewelry Store my Sons Company had, with me as the first Security Officer (Mad rush, must have armed person tonight, command at 9am to me) I was not working regularly.

The front entrance was a man trap. Two doors, only one could be open at a time, plus metal detector, inside. I had a remote, a couple of the senior staff did as well.

When the alarm chirped, I would walk over, and ask "Are you carrying a weapon?" LEO, come in after verifying ID. FCCW License, I would let them in, others after me, would say "Please leave it in your car"

While you spoke to the customer, they were in the locked man trap, but they could always leave, street door not secured.

A couple of Cops said "I can leave it in the car if you like?"

No Sir, you are my unpaid back up.
 
Brit said:
The Jewelry Store my Sons Company had, with me as the first Security Officer (Mad rush, must have armed person tonight, command at 9am to me) I was not working regularly.

The front entrance was a man trap. Two doors, only one could be open at a time, plus metal detector, inside. I had a remote, a couple of the senior staff did as well.

When the alarm chirped, I would walk over, and ask "Are you carrying a weapon?" LEO, come in after verifying ID. FCCW License, I would let them in, others after me, would say "Please leave it in your car"

While you spoke to the customer, they were in the locked man trap, but they could always leave, street door not secured.

A couple of Cops said "I can leave it in the car if you like?"

No Sir, you are my unpaid back up.
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This would be my setup including having BP windows. However, a pawnshop would have many false positives. Rather be a hassle than dead though.

If your man trap only allowed 1 open door the street door could not always be unlocked. Otherwise unarmed guy could be first and second guy could rush in after inner door was opened.
 
Power5.

Maybe I was not clear enough, the remote that allowed the people in the man trap access to the store, immediately locked the street door!

Till I pressed the remote, the in trap individuals could leave. But the instant I pressed the remote, the street door was secured, then the inner door opened.

The funniest part of the whole episode, that I have posted somewhere, was the first night.

The reason for this rush, hence me getting the first shift, I had no regular site, I was the Dad, just got the odd job, some one not turning up, had to leave for an emergency reason, that kind of thing.

This was a kind of emergency, the top Lady sales person in the company, was in this branch.
"If no armed security here tomorrow, I am not coming in to work" She stated.

A couple of things, both my Son and I had shot gun waivers, I wrote the letter to the State. "Purpose, hi risk patrol" we were doing two man plain clothes escort of Jewelry vehicles.

Second the concern of this attractive young Lady, there was a Hood, just behind the rear parking area, behind a high concrete wall. But you could drive out, of course.

Closing time, 8PM, then for as long as it took, contents of display cases, into plastic boxes, onto carts, on wheels, which fitted into a large vault.

Then the sales staff, 4, left, manager exited on his own, setting alarm as he left. To meet a half dozen, sometimes more, denizens of the Hood, sitting on their cars, making dirty comments to the Lady's. Getting worse, each night.

I called my troops together for a briefing! "You 4 leave first, I leave at the same time, in front, when I reach the cars, I will wave you out"

"Then the Manager, he has set the alarm, I will wave him out also"

"You guys will have entered your Cars, locked doors, started engines, side lights on only" "When the Manager has entered his car, engine/seat belt on, and leaves first, you all leave in line, closest to Managers car, first."

The first exit point, a dead little street, then traffic light exit to main road. So they would all 5 vehicles leave parking lot together.

My 12 Gage, was in the Managers Office, behind the door, in a case.

Mossberg 500 Ex Sheriffs gun, I had put SECURITY on the side of the stock, white 1" letters. Five shells, double ought buck, breach empty.

Sales staff ready, me out first, shotgun alongside right leg, black pants, black shotgun.

Step outside, swing gun across chest, look at the wee crowd, pump, walk across parking lot, high ready. Stop at the end, wave my troops out!

The instance the lot had emptied of all the employees, the chirp of tires pulling away, was all you heard, they never came back.

Never let it be said, Security is boring, not always!
 
The woman in the pawn shop was probably better off with the revolver. From the limited footage, her limp wristed skills might have got her a jammed semi auto.
In any event, good for her!
 
Lance Thomas, went through a period of little knowledge of firearms, carrying, and using same, in violent altercations with gang members. He did come good!

The interesting conclusion he came too, carrying a good quality 15 round magazine pistol, fully loaded, in a good holster, on his strong side.

And as the FBI have re-discovered, in 9mm.

His experience was real, it happened. There is a message there for we, of the gun carrying crowd... Reliable pistol, lots of rounds, without a reload, learn to use it, carry concealed, and hit what he aimed at. Can't be bad.
 
brit said:
The interesting conclusion he came too, carrying a good quality 15 round magazine pistol, fully loaded, in a good holster, on his strong side.

And as the FBI have re-discovered, in 9mm.
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How did you decide that he came to those conclusions? Do you have any references? From what I understand he never carried a gun on him, never used anything that held over 9 rounds, had one 9mm out of 8 guns, and the only time he grabbed the 9mm P-225 it jammed on him after 3 rounds. But thanks to his prior planning, he had a P-220 .45 within reach.

I would say that the conclusion he came to was to NOT have a gun on him where he might not be able to get to it, but to have a LOT of lower capacity guns within reach. Seems that the same reasoning might have worked out better for the shop owners in the original post.

Seems that his conclusion was to have four SIG 8 or 9 shot semi-automatics (1 in 9mm, 3 in 45 auto) and four revolvers lying around under his counters where he could grab a gun if one was needed, then drop it and grab another one if the one he was using jammed or ran out of ammo.

Doesn't seem real practical for a typical person with a CCW to carry eight weapons on them, but it makes sense in a shop.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Thomas-story)
 
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Right, he staged guns around his shop. If you read/see the accounts, he isn't drawing a holstered high cap pistol.

The first two fights started with revolvers.

Next to last fight, started with...
Sig P225 in 9mm, 8 rounds,

Last fight, started with...
Sig P220 in .45 acp, 8 rounds and finished with a second Sig P220

His experience was real, it happened. There is a message there for we, of the gun carrying crowd.
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That message would be...Stage a lot of guns around you.
 
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