Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection

Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark.
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Very poor example, and it was 4, not 5. They never actually physically attacked him and they were not armed. Like stopping the old lady with a shot that didn't even break her skin, her shot penetrated the arm of the gunman who turned and shot at her. She crumpled. He didn't.

Why would that make a difference? Does it cause people to become complacent and not act when they get bad vibes?
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Bad "vibes" is something of a joke in such a situation where it recurs over and over again. You start to realize that the reasons for getting bad vibes are not because something bad is apt to happen. That isn't being complacent. That is a learned behavior. You also learn, as the examples Old Lance above had experienced, bad vibes are a poor indicator something will happen. His robberies were largely business as usual events, until the robbery started.

The robbers in the pawn shop video aren't really any different than countless other customers that are apt to come in the shop. It is easy to say they look nefarious AFTER the event, but they just look like other customers.

Its chilly weather. Hoodies are going to be up this time of year.
 
Its chilly weather. Hoodies are going to be up this time of year.

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That's why the sign and buzz in door.
Some of the liquor stores around here, even in the good neighborhoods, have similar signs.
 
Who knows?

When stuff like this happens, I think of a quote from one of my favorite books when I was a kid, "The Magician's Nephew." A fella is asked if he'd be willing to fight on the front lines in a war and he says this:

"... a chap don’t exactly know till he’s been tried. I dare say I might turn out ever such a soft ‘un. Never did no fighting except with my fists. I’d try — that is, I ‘ope I’d try — to do my bit."

There's no harm in discussing what could have been done better. And I think it's helpful to review it and learn from it. I won't mock people as "internet commandos" for thinking ahead about what they'd do. But things never go down like you'd plan. And honestly, I just don't know how well I'd handle myself in a gun fight. Sure, that's why we practice. Just in case. But you never really know. I try to have a gun and level of proficiency that I can trust. But in the end, I just gotta trust God and then hope. Stuff is going to go wrong sometimes.
 
After watching that video yesterday, I have my Ruger LC9 in a Crossbreed holster, and extra magazine in my front pocket, instead of my model 36 on my hip.
After watching that with the two thugs, made me think about carrying just a five shot revolver.
I guess I probably will in the future, but with a LCP in my back pocket for a BUG.
 
store robbery

I believe that if the peeps had any sense the owners a helper would be dead.
The only reason they didn't use autos so no shell casings could be found.with the given situation it was a perfect setup an them folks should be dead.
They need a plan,an not carry 6 guns,also they should be able to get to backup weapons anywhere in the store,in case their weapons fail.
If I were them I would have a button that would lock the door,in case of a shoot out,that way I could insure that I could kill them,an make it harder for perpss to getaway even if I was shot.
6 guns in pockets or pants is a no no
 
The only reason they didn't use autos so no shell casings could be found.
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Who? The robbers?! They had semi-auto pistols!
They'll spit out casings as readily as any auto.

I could insure that I could kill them
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I believe that is called murder... Typically frowned upon.

But things never go down like you'd plan.
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Reminds me of a surprisingly insightful quote from a certain Mike Tyson. I believe he said " Everybody's got a plan. Right up until they get punched in the face." Probably very true.
 
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Are Glocks the only semi-autos that are affected by limp-wristing?
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Not at all. They are probably one of the most common polymer framed pistol and polymer framed pistols (any pistols with very light frames--particularly in relatively powerful calibers) tend to be more affected by limp-wristing.
...that way I could insure that I could kill them...
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The LEGAL use of deadly force is about preventing serious injury or death to an innocent. Once an attacker breaks off and tries to leave, there is no longer any need for prevention and that means there is also no longer any justification for using deadly force.

Killing someone after they have clearly broken off the attack and are trying to get away is murder.
 
You think they probably didn't get a bad vibe except in hindsight? That could be.
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No, I think people get bad vibes from others all the time, but they don't bother acting upon them, but will claim, after the fact, some a priori insight (I had a bad vibe about...) after something goes wrong. They never tell you about the bad vibes they had that came to nothing and they don't tell you why they failed to act when they got a bad vibe in the situation that went wrong.

Some of the liquor stores around here, even in the good neighborhoods, have similar signs.
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Yeah, we know how good signs stop crimes, huh? Everyone knows a criminal can't do a robbery without his hoodie up and if the sign says you can't wear a hoodie, he ain't going in the store...and nothing will stop him from raising it once he is inside.
 
ya don't buzz him in if its up -- the camera catches him with it down.

inside or out --

Just a tool - the smart crook will know he is on camera.
 
Double Naught, you are usually pretty sensible but I remember this differently.

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Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark.

Very poor example, and it was 4, not 5. They never actually physically attacked him and they were not armed.

I am pretty sure that 2 or 3 or maybe all of the wannabe toughs and criminal-history thugs whom Bernie Goetz shot had not just screwdrivers, but ones that had been sharpened.

The legal standard "reasonable person" is quite capable of "apprehending threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" without waiting for a physical assault to begin. Legally, the "assault" begins when the weapon is seen and that is combined with some sign of willingness on the part of the perpetrator to use it.

From what I could read back when it was freshly in the sometimes honestly reported news, the Goetz shooting was clean until the last shot.

Interesting how the crowds who don't care about FACTS and physical evidence than cannot be faked chanted about charging Goetz with "genocide" when not one of the attempted robbery perpetrators died.

Back on topic: Rule #1 of a gunfight was followed. What's Rule #2? Be able to DEPLOY your gun, and practice to be smooth and accurate on presentation?

To those who want a half-dozen or more backup guns scattered throughout the work area: How do you secure them from the gang that has cased your joint and noted their locations? Some people think about this stuff. The one time I did a ride-along with the local PD, I was a little disappointed that my LEO never bothered to instruct me to be his eyes and ears, nor did he arrange for any signal for suspicion or for outright danger. But every time we entered a residence I placed myself between the occupants and the kitchen, and I think you might figure out why.
 
Well Grump, you are partially correct. They were armed but apparently never threatened Goetz with the screw drivers and at the time only made verbal demands for money. They did not physically attack him. Goetz did not know they had the screwdrivers.

So the notion that Goetz stopped these guys with his revolver isn't actually a great testament to stopping any sort of battle. These were not determined attackers. In fact, they had not yet attacked, only threatened.

Sort of like in the pawn shop with the male employees. They had guns in their pockets, but the guns never came into play, nor did the screwdrivers.
 
The video just reminded us how stupid most criminals are. I wasn't too impressed by the shop keeps except for the lady. They should've been aware and ready.
 
3 people start shooting in an enclosed space with 5 people...only one gets shot...big lesson there.
I know performance degrades dramatically under stress, but try to only take shots where you will hit (unless you are intentionally using suppressive fire). In other words, practice enough to know your limits under stress.

For the two guys, not getting shot is a pretty good outcome!
For the lady, pretty good response. Not optimal performance, but she fended off an attack and was not seriously injured. Overall, a success.

I'll put in a plug for medical training and on-hand supplies. If you carry a gun, why aren't you also carrying a small trauma kit?
 
And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there. Deaf
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Deaf Smith. Had it right, all the lessons are in the escalation that took place with Lance and his Watch shop. Finally ending up with a good holster, and high capacity 9mm, a Sig?

We have a shooting sport, IDPA, that I participate in, look that up.

The Pistol I use, I carry, a Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights. The only malfunctions I have ever had, faulty factory ammunition. I now drop every round in a spare barrel, to check they drop in, fall out.

So month in, month out, around 100+ rounds, press trigger, bang! These shots, dictated by the group that set the stages up, encompass all kind of shooting positions, good fun as well.

Now this is not gunfighting training, but you draw from a holster, concealed, shoot free style, or mandated strong hand, and weak hand.

And I can not remember having my pistol failing to fire, at all.

If any lessons have been learned by the 3 employees in the Pawnshop it is this, carry better pistols, on belt.

Both men could carry Glock 19s, with a Spare G17 magazine for malfunction purposes, the brave Grandma, the same! My Wife at 5'3" and 125 lbs, has no problem shooting a Glock 19.

All three could wear a Store Vest, name of the Company embroidered on them. Walk in or out of the store, no worries. At the least they need some professional instruction, plus regular range visits.

They had a wake up call, WAKE UP!
 
The tactics of the pawn shop, just like any good business, should be:

- Cameras and lots of them

- Barriers- What barrier exists between the employees and the customers?

- Lights- If the store operates at night, there should be plenty of lights outside and inside.

- "Buzz"- If the store is a small operation its best to "buzz" people in as instead of just letting them wonder in. If anyone is wearing a mask or acting suspicious than dont let them in. Obviously these pawn shop owners knew a threat existed as they were all armed.

- Open- Carry or a concealed holster- The Kojak carry didnt seem to work for them.

- Drill and training- If they know they are at risk of a hold-up than weekly or monthly hold-up drills. Also weekly or monthly trips to the firing range.

- Panic button- A central alarm system which includes a panic button to alert police behind the counter.

As for the firearms they carry, I would say they should carry the firearms which they are most comfortable working with from day to day. I believe the revolvers they had were just fine, but its their deployment method that went wrong.

This, of course, is just my personal opinion.
 
The legal standard "reasonable person" is quite capable of "apprehending threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" without waiting for a physical assault to begin. Legally, the "assault" begins when the weapon is seen and that is combined with some sign of willingness on the part of the perpetrator to use it.

From what I could read back when it was freshly in the sometimes honestly reported news, the Goetz shooting was clean until the last shot.
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I stand corrected. He took out 4 guys with a 5 shooter if that makes a difference. The attackers were armed with sharpened screwdrivers. They did not immediately pull weapons, but witnesses would argue that the pending attck was well under way. The shooting was ruled as JUSTIFIED, and Goetz did 8 months time for having an unlicensed handgun in NY.

One thing that was impressed upon us in my CCW class was that no one can give you advance permission to shoot someone, regardless of the circumstances. You have to get the legal permission after the fact, and your job is to survive to make it to the court hearing. Juries will see the same set of facts differently.

I agree with your point here, that too much emphasis is put on whether an attacker is armed, and what he is armed with. In most states, you are not obligated to engage an attacker in a "fair fight". The "what a reasonable person would believe" standard is pretty common. "He lunged at me" is a common defense for shooting someone unarmed. The bigger and more scary he is, the easier to convince a jury that your fears were reasonable.
 
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