Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection

You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used? It also appeared that the loose one-handed grip she was using would be asking for a limp-wrist jam in a semi-auto.
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I guess I got really lucky when I bought my semi-autos. I must have bought the only 5 pistols in the area that don't immediately jam when fired. And here I thought it was because a thief would probably buy the cheapest gun possible and probably not go to the range to test it out to make sure it was a reliable gun where that is what I do and make sure to buy a reputable brand. Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes: As far as limp wristing, just don't buy a Glock. :D
 
You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used?
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Not at all... but she might have been better off with a reliable semi-auto. They seem to be fairly common these days.

....and I am fairly positive she'd be better off with a firm, two handed grip, utilizing the sights (provided she paracticed it) than the limp, one handed sorta-hip shooting thing, or whatever it was, she was doing.......
 
Good grief.

The 60+ year old woman gets an A+ in my book.
She was armed = A-.
She engaged with her weapon = A.
She hit what she was aiming at in a life and death real engagement = A+.

I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.

Give me a break for those of you criticizing her draw technique, or for going down after being "hit". This is a predictable reaction (see FBI leathality study) for any person who is "shot". Did I mention she looks to be in her 60's? Wow, just wow.
 
Give me a break for those of you criticizing her draw technique, or for going down after being "hit". This is a predictable reaction (see FBI leathality study) for any person who is "shot".
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Relax man. Who was criticizing? It was just a simple observation. As was her actions after she ran out of ammo.

If that engagement was an A+ in your book you must leave alot to chance. She was very lucky.

I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.
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Who knows? Perhaps yes perhaps no. But you can do your best to prepare yourself for it. All the prep in the world equals zero if that robbers first shot hits you square in the head.
 
I pocket carry often and there have been times that I worried about being able to get a revolver out of my pocket quickly. I probably practice drawing more than the average pawn shop clerk but I'd much rather have my revolver or G26 in an OWB holster concealed under a shirt than have to dig either out of a pocket while bending over, seated or prone.


One of the things that did help them all survive is awareness. They were suspecting this to go badly, by the time it started, which probably saved some of them by be able to react quickly even if it was just to duck down to avoid getting shot.
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If the shop workers got a bad vibe from the robbers, I wonder why they didn't make their way to the more potent weapons concealed in the shop or at least get their hands on their revolvers?


The lady had a mindset that allowed her to drive the robbers off with a small revolver. I'm glad the good guys suffered no serious injuries and I'm pleased the robbers were caught. Hopefully, the robbers will spend a long time in prison.
 
1. If you carry a revolver, either carry TWO or a very quick reload.
2. If you carry a revolver you have better be a real good shot cause
you don't have many do-overs.
3. Spray and pray does not work.
4. A reliable revolver beats a unreliable semi-automatic (but a real reliable semi-auto is even better.)

If I worked in a pawn/gun shop I would have a bullet proof vest under a very loose shirt (like a Hawaiian shirt.) And yes a good reliable gun.

They also need a few armored display racks (armored and UNKNOWN to the bad guys) so they can hide behind them if need be.

Note with just five shots the clerk drew blood. Then two thugs with semi-autos and more ammo didn't.

Now does that mean a revolver is better than a semi-auto? No.
But it's the first few shots that matter, not the 10th, 20th, 30th.... as for as personal defense.

And yes, I'd have packed my Glock if I worked there as it is very well known for it's reliability and it DOES hold more ammo, but only cause it holds it's 'reload' already inside the gun.

And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there.

Deaf
 
I believe she was actually shot at 3 times by the perp that jumped over the glass display case. All of his rounds hit the display case with the last one exploding that book and the mostly spent bullet hit her in the chest. She has a pretty bad bruise, they said. I suppose it could have knocked the wind out of her.
 
Kudos to the 3 people working there for being able to go home at the end of the day even though it was mostly due to luck.

My question is how often if ever did these people practice shooting?
We criticize tactics and fundamentals but we are probably in the very small minority that shoot on a regular basis.

Single layer entry doors make it far too easy for robbery suspects to escape.
One store in our area has double barred doors which require you to be buzzed in. Both doors are interlocked so that they cannot be opened at the same time.

Bottom line is that better holsters and more practice is needed.
I think God might have been paying a little extra attention that day.
 
does this change anyone's views on .38? between this and other stories, I am just starting to feel it's an inadequate SD round. maybe it's just how it played out, maybe a bigger or faster calibers wouldn't have made a difference, but it sure makes me wonder
 
Pawn shops, by nature, are risky places. Lots of questionable characters. It sounds like their security posture was too loose.

The .38 is a fine round which served the police for decades. I think it was the users and not the rounds? The pistol gets stuck in the pocket? Huh?
 
There is no reason to be pocket carrying anything in that line of work, if that was indeed the case. I would've been carrying IWB, preferably OWB if possible. Except for the woman, the other shop owners/employees could not get to their weapons in time. This could've been disastrous. They are all very lucky.

One would hope they would rethink their response tactics and carry methods after this, but if they had already been in this sort of thing before and were still that inept, then I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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The clerks probably believed that they would have more time to react when confronted with a life or death situation. Even though they were lucky. Their pistol choices types of ammo and time spent practicing will be permanently altered due to this incident. Its amazing how fast a situation can spiral out of control and I'm glad that working people came out with only minor injuries. Another lesson is even though you outnumber the threat (3 clerks 2 bad guys).If the people you depend on for backup aren't aware or can't get their guns out it's the same as if your the one being outnumbered.
 
I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.
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Whether I do or not, if this hypothetical encounter takes place on video, I hope others will look at what I do and try to learn from it.

Very few of us will ever be in a gunfight, and the very few of us who are will almost certainly never be in a second one. It pays to learn from what others do (good or bad) in gunfights given that we almost certainly won't have the opportunity to learn from our own gunfights.
You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used?
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I would hope that she, like any of us, would have practiced with her chosen self-defense gun enough to know how to insure it operates properly and to be certain that the ammunition she chose was reliable in the gun.

To answer your question, no, she would not have been better off with a jammed semi-auto. But then, there's no reason to assume that a working revolver or a jammed semi-auto would be her only two choices.

To provide a more thorough answer, just about the only non-LEO I'm aware of who has had a number of gunfights (Lance Thomas), used a 5 shot revolver in his first gunfight, revolverS in his second gunfight and then switched to autopistolS thereafter. After his first gunfight, he never relied on a single handgun again.
The Woman (older lady and wife of the husband, starts shooting at the perp as he jumps over the counter to get to her husband.
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I hadn't quite put it together that the one bad guy was going after her husband. That means the woman was basically point-shooting in the general direction of her husband. I'm glad things worked out well.
 
The old lady falling over when 'shot' was a bit comical, obviously not a physiological effect, but may have saved her life as well. She was pretty well out of the fight at that moment anyway.

It sounds like a small operation where they should be buzzing people in rather than letting them walk in.
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Why? They would have just buzzed them in. Buzz-in system are not very conducive to a customer base where people often need to carry in and out heavy or bulky items, as is done in a pawn shop.

Single layer entry doors make it far too easy for robbery suspects to escape.
One store in our area has double barred doors which require you to be buzzed in. Both doors are interlocked so that they cannot be opened at the same time.
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Trapping people inside the space with you who are trying to kill you can be a very bad thing.

All of the gun stores Ive been to the store people open carry and this sounds like an operation where they should do the same.
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I didn't see in the stories where open carry was not allowed. Wearing a gun openly can just mean that the bad guys shoot you first. Notice that the bad guys went after the perceived threats first, the men, thinking the old lady didn't have teeth.

Pawn shops, by nature, are risky places. Lots of questionable characters.
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No, no more so than a LOT of businesses. Pawn shops may deal with a lot more of the downtrodden population, but the vast majority are good people.

If the shop workers got a bad vibe from the robbers, I wonder why they didn't make their way to the more potent weapons concealed in the shop or at least get their hands on their revolvers?
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Because lots of people in pawn shops don't behave normally. You get bad vibes from people several times a day, every day.

And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there.
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Lots of questionable characters in jewelry stores? :D

Lance was shot mulitple times. He was in 4 actual battles. In the fourth, he had double locking doors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgHDN_ANi4

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One thing the folks in the pawn shop did right was to not be bunched. That was sufficient to cause the robbers to have to split up and it made fighting back more effective for the old lady.
 
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A friend of mine that is a local gun dealer and fine metal broker {no jewelry but he sells and buys silver, gold, ect} had a company come in and go through his security from top to bottom. They gave him a plan from mild to wild, mild being improving his video system and training and arming all employees and wild being armed guards, state of the art video, a fast door, safe room, lol it would have added $200K in up front costs and almost $50K in annual salaries...

He went in the middle with training, security and video updates, having all employees wearing vests, and a pretty cool device that opened the outside doors with a push of a button {also has a handicapped button outside the store}, not sure if its a proven method but it would allow anyone who wanted out a faster exit be it a victim or bad gun, either way the point is to get them out of your store or neutralise them.

His staff carries FN 5.7's he provides {only 4 guys}, and they are good with them things, I see them at the range and I can tell you if them 2 boys in the video went in his store the news story would have been much different.. The sad part is not all stores have the resources for improved security, good thing that guys gun jammed, can anyone see what it was , glock, sigma, ECT???


Also I don't like the other guy in the video saying the store owners need to take his neighbors into consideration, thats not right, Ill bet when hes getting shot at from his store that is the first place he will run....
 
"Is five shots enough?"
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Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark. I'm not exactly sure of the FL threshhold, but at some point more than six bad guys is considered a zombie thread and you are just supposed to not happen to be there.
 
Because lots of people in pawn shops don't behave normally. You get bad vibes from people several times a day, every day.
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Why would that make a difference? Does it cause people to become complacent and not act when they get bad vibes?
 
At the very least have a buzz in door -- so ---
Have a sign outside that says, no sunglasses or raised hoodies, ect. You don't get buzzed in if you don't comply.
The folks should have been on high alert when the shoppers were mostly covered with hats AND hoodies up.
One brave lady! Don't mess with old folks!!!
 
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