Secondary Non-lethal weapon

[DougO83]

nope

My point was that your statement seems to be that those who avoid confrontations are "hiding behind" their ccw.

Lurper, apparently we misunderstand each other. I was saying that if your first reaction is to reach for your steel, you are hiding behind a CCW. I have managed to get out of alot without even mentioning my pistol. I grew up in a rough area of Houston, so confrontation is not an uncommon thing. Also, the possibility of me shooting a gangbanger in that area is very highly likely and, though it may not be on tv, everyone in a 10-20 mile radius is gonna know who I am. You can bet the farm on that.

How could anyone not think that a physical assault on you after blocking your retreat could be anything but life threatening?

Simple, if I am punched in the mouth and the guy wants to keep going, I do not feel that my life has been threatened. I view life-threatening as someone coming at me with something equal or greater than what I have to throw back. I know this can be fatal logic, but that is a risk I am willing to take.

the odds of using it on a gangbanger even smaller and the odds of his buddies retaliation smaller still

Wrong. That's all that statement is. Wrong. If I am back home and shoot one of these latino gangsters with my CCW, I am an absolute fool to think that they will not retaliate in force.

You're right, it is purely hypothetical to the point that it really doesn't warrant consideration.

So is your tale of people being incapacitated by a single blow. That cheap shot video on here of the old man getting punched is totally not what I am talking about either. I would like to meet the guy who can take out a 6'1" 285 lb. bouncer/security guard with one simple punch. Now, it may send me reeling, that is true, but it won't put me down for very long.

 

[DougO83]

hm..

Macksruger, I never thought of the laser, but that could be a bit of a deterrent in some situations.

 

[DougO83]

non exactly LTL

While I would not declare it as completely LTL, my CRKT Kasper knife seems to get the point across relatively well. Somehow, pulling a knife with an almost 4.5" blade screams "leave me alone."

 

[kcshooter]

I have been in enough fights to know when I do or don't have a decent chance.
Granted, we have more extensive training than most people in a bar and are always at an advantage because we are sober.
I would like to meet the guy who can take out a 6'1" 285 lb. bouncer/security guard with one simple punch

This type of rational is exactly what will set you up for possibly losing your life in an altercation someday.
I trained in martial arts for about 3 years, and was pretty good too, before I suffered a bad shoulder injury that made me realize I just couldn't do it anymore. The shoulder surgery and the 3 knee surgeries made me realize I wasn't going to be able to continue training like I had been.
My instructor was about 5'6" and all of 140lbs. He was far from intimidating but I guarantee you wouldn't stand a chance against him. He's done things that seem to simply defy the laws of physics.
So would you know thru your psychic ability that you wouldn't have a chance? You may have had extensive training but not enough to stand up to this guy. I bet you'd try though since you are 7 inches taller and twice his weight, right?
Personally, I don't pretend to know what someones background is. I don't know what kind of training anyone has had. If I am under attack, I assume he is the baddest MF I've ever run into.
I know well enough to know that just because I'm bigger doesn't mean that I'm gonna win. You have the typical tough guy mentality, and that's gonna be what bites you in the ass one of these days.

This is highly unlikely in conflict with the average moron

Again, foolishly assuming things that you don't know can get you killed.

why pull my sidearm when a blast of 5.3 million SHU will do the trick?

Again, what if it doesn't and you haven't left yourself time to draw?

While I would not declare it as completely LTL, my CRKT Kasper knife seems to get the point across relatively well. Somehow, pulling a knife with an almost 4.5" blade screams "leave me alone."

Pulling out a knife as a weapon is always a bad idea. It doesn't incapacitate quickly, you will have their (possibly diseased) blood all over you, you have to be too close to use it, and it is too easy to have it taken away by someone who's trained to be able to do so. Again, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

I know this can be fatal logic, but that is a risk I am willing to take.

You're willing to risk your own life? Well by your statements you will be doing just that. Meanwhile I'll choose to defend myself when I need to. I won't do it at a risk to myself or to others around me, and I will do it within the boundaries of the law. And I'll live.


With all of your statements, I gotta ask, just exactly where did you receive all of this "extensive training"?

 

[DougO83]

No Disrespect Intended

My instructor was about 5'6" and all of 140lbs. He was far from intimidating but I guarantee you wouldn't stand a chance against him

Just because you don't believe you could doesn't mean I can't. I have my own dose of martial arts and boxing training since I was a young child. I do not rely on my size to win a fight, but under ordinary circumstances, it tends to be a deterrent all by itself. Also, I worked private security (read:bodyguard) for an entertainer for about a year. I was required to meet the proficiency standards set out by his head of security who happens to be a black belt in MCMAP.

Personally, I don't pretend to know what someones background is. I don't know what kind of training anyone has had.

Nor do I. I do, however, know my background very well. I know my limits and I know what I can push.

If I am under attack, I assume he is the baddest MF I've ever run into.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have enough confidence in myself to know that not everyone can kick my a$$ in a fight. My aformentioned training helps me to gauge what I am able to do and able to handle.

I know well enough to know that just because I'm bigger doesn't mean that I'm gonna win

.

Everyone knows this, I never said that little guys can't hold their own, but if somebody doesn't pull a gun on me, why should I pull mine? If somebody hits my girlfriend or brother while I am out with them, I will have an issue with that and will react. If someone hits me, I am not going to be a coward and pull a gun on them.

You have the typical tough guy mentality, and that's gonna be what bites you in the ass one of these days.

Sorry, didn't realize you were a certified mental health professional. You have little to base this on other than the fact that I listed alternatives to shooting someone in a confrontation. I pointed out other ways to handle it and used my personal experience. Just because you have not had the same experiences or share the same values and skills that I do does not mean that my means of handling a confrontation are invalid or wrong.

Quote:
This is highly unlikely in conflict with the average moron

Again, foolishly assuming things that you don't know can get you killed.

In your experience, maybe. In mine, not so much.

Quote:
why pull my sidearm when a blast of 5.3 million SHU will do the trick?

Again, what if it doesn't and you haven't left yourself time to draw?

Then that is how the chips have fallen. I would much rather take a few punches than shoot someone and depend on our amazing court system for my life because I took someone else's because I couldn't hold my own without a gun.

Quote:
While I would not declare it as completely LTL, my CRKT Kasper knife seems to get the point across relatively well. Somehow, pulling a knife with an almost 4.5" blade screams "leave me alone."

Pulling out a knife as a weapon is always a bad idea. It doesn't incapacitate quickly, you will have their (possibly diseased) blood all over you, you have to be too close to use it, and it is too easy to have it taken away by someone who's trained to be able to do so. Again, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Please quit quoting that dang movie, we get it, ok? I also stated that it works as a deterrent, please read my posts before responding.

Quote:
I know this can be fatal logic, but that is a risk I am willing to take.

You're willing to risk your own life? Well by your statements you will be doing just that. Meanwhile I'll choose to defend myself when I need to. I won't do it at a risk to myself or to others around me, and I will do it within the boundaries of the law. And I'll live.

Yes, I am. My first security job was as an unarmed guard. In the area I worked, I certainly risked my life on a daily basis. I had no fear of losing my life. My current job as a bouncer puts me in situations where I could possibly encounter an armed assailant, but does that mean that I can sit there and do nothing? No, I still have to engage and neutralize the threat. Same thing when I am not working and am able to pack. I really do not see a need to treat every conflict as a reason to shoot someone. Again, I DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH CONFIDENCE IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM TO RELY ON THEM FOR MY SALVATION IF I DO SHOOT SOMEONE.

 

[Lurper]

Lurper, apparently we misunderstand each other. I was saying that if your first reaction is to reach for your steel, you are hiding behind a CCW.

Apparently so. However, having said that, I will not take a punch if I am armed. That is IMO is fatal thinking. Nor is it required for the shooting to be justified. As I mentioned earlier, if someone threatens to assault me and isn't deterred by words, I will warn them that I am armed, that if they continue I will be in fear for my life and forced to defend myself while reaching for the cell phone and dialling 911. If they continue, then I will draw while again telling them that I am in fear for my life and to please stop and let me walk away (since 911 calls are recorded), if he continues, I will shoot. No reasonable person could call that unjustified especially if the ability to retreat has been removed by your attacker. If someone just comes up and starts pummelling you, that is clearly justification. If someone sucker punches you and walks away, then you should just let them walk away and thank God that was all that happened.
What I firmly disagree with is:
The thought that it is wise to enter into a physical altercation when armed.
The thought that you should take an ass whippin' or even a punch just because you are armed and they are not.
The thought that you won't get knocked out, down or have your gun knocked out of the holster by fighting with someone.
If it is up to you, the thought of getting involved in an incident that does not call for the application of deadly force beyond the extent of calling 911 and being a good witness.
The idea that closing the distance between you and the BG is somehow a good idea.

If I am back home and shoot one of these latino gangsters with my CCW, I am an absolute fool to think that they will not retaliate in force.

You miss my point. The odds of it reaching that point are extremely thin. Being involved in an armed confrontation has a low percentage of occurance. Being involved in one with a gangbanger is an even smaller number. Even if you shoot a gangbanger, they still have to find out where you live (not impossible), work, probably what you look like, etc.
So, the point wasn't that they wouldn't retaliate, it was that the odds of that entire scenarion playing out are extremely small.

BTW, a knife is not in any way shape or form considered even a little LTL. Knives are definately lethal weapons.

If you ever run into a guy named Daniel Buckner or Dexter Phillips, you will have met two guys who could take you out with one punch.

 

[kcshooter]

If someone hits me, I am not going to be a coward and pull a gun on them.

Wow. I'm not even gonna justify this one, tough guy.

 

[DougO83]

again...?

What I firmly disagree with is:
The thought that it is wise to enter into a physical altercation when armed.
The thought that you should take an ass whippin' or even a punch just because you are armed and they are not.
The thought that you won't get knocked out, down or have your gun knocked out of the holster by fighting with someone.
If it is up to you, the thought of getting involved in an incident that does not call for the application of deadly force beyond the extent of calling 911 and being a good witness.
The idea that closing the distance between you and the BG is somehow a good idea.

I will respond to these in order:
1. Never even said that.
2. Why shoot someone who just throws a punch? Again, who will a court side with?
3. I actually said that was a reason to avoid a confrontation.
4. Where did I say that?
5. If I said that, it was a mis-type.

 

[DougO83]

...

You miss my point. The odds of it reaching that point are extremely thin. Being involved in an armed confrontation has a low percentage of occurance. Being involved in one with a gangbanger is an even smaller number. Even if you shoot a gangbanger, they still have to find out where you live (not impossible), work, probably what you look like, etc.
So, the point wasn't that they wouldn't retaliate, it was that the odds of that entire scenarion playing out are extremely small.

Not where I'm from. It is an entirely real possibility

BTW, a knife is not in any way shape or form considered even a little LTL. Knives are definately lethal weapons.

You just reiterated what I said.

If you ever run into a guy named Daniel Buckner or Dexter Phillips, you will have met two guys who could take you out with one punch

Wow...Two people out of millions. In that case, I would shoot. But, if you read what I wrote, I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT.

 

[Manedwolf]

So the reason I bought the laser in the first place is the intimidation factor. Just imagine if someone put that red dot on your chest. Puts a little different spin on things doesn’t it?

Yes, as they step up and slap the gun out of your hands or tackle you while you're trying to intimidate them. Or if they're strung out or even drunk and notice it. You've delayed, and they can quickly close the distance and disarm you.

BAD idea, IMO. The laser should only be used if you intend to fire RIGHT THEN, as a targeting aid.

It's not a deterrent! And you never draw unless you're about to pull that trigger, or you shouldn't draw!

The "red dot on chest, oh, I give up!" thing is pure movie nonsense. Don't do it, good way to end up dead. It's a targeting aid. Period.

 

[Lurper]

I

will respond to these in order:
1. Never even said that.
2. Why shoot someone who just throws a punch? Again, who will a court side with?
3. I actually said that was a reason to avoid a confrontation.
4. Where did I say that?
5. If I said that, it was a mis-type.

Never said you said those, it aint always about you, there are several people in the thread so don't take it so personally.


However, these are about you:

2. Why shoot someone who just throws a punch? Again, who will a court side with?

Because anyone who assaults you when you are armed has ratcheted the level of the confrontation up to a lethal one. Despite what you want to believe, there is a very real and likely possibility that you will be injured, disarmed and killed. There is also a very real possibility that someone else may be injured or killed. As far as the courts are concerned, in many states the burden of proof lies with the state, not the defendant. Also, most states only require that you have a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death. If you don't feel the assault is life threatening, dont' respond with deadly force. But you may take that bravado with you to the grave.

While I would not declare it as completely LTL,

If it is not completely LTL, that means it is partially LTL. Again, a knife is clearly in no way, shape or form LTL. That was my only point, which isn't really a reiteration of what you said.

Not where I'm from. It is an entirely real possibility

Unless you live in a third world country, no matter what your feelings or thoughts are, statistically it is extremely unlikely that will happen.

My aformentioned training helps me to gauge what I am able to do and able to handle.

The problem with that logic is that by the time it occurs to you that you have bitten off more than you can chew, your tactical position is exteremly poor. In fact, it may not occur to you until you are losing conciousness. Kind of hard to call 911 or draw your pistol under those conditions. Even if you are getting the upper hand, anyone can get a lucky shot in. You ignore the deterrent value of the firearm. Most altercations are ended just by the presence of a firearm. You also seem to contend that an attack on you after you have warned the assailant that you are armed, in fear for your life, calling the police and the assailant has blocked your retreat is not life threatening! That just doesn't pass the reasonable man test.

If someone hits me, I am not going to be a coward and pull a gun on them.

The implication is that those who don't agree with your course of action are cowards. One has to assume that you make such underhanded, thinly veiled insults about people whose backgrounds you have no clue about out of ignorance reinforced with some false sense of bravado bolstered by an unhealthy dose of testosterone and a lack of common sense and courtesy.
I believe my military record, commendations, and the fact that I have survived several armed confrontations disqualifies me as a coward in most people's books. So, please feel free to state your opinions, but please refrain from passing sweeping judgements on people whom you don't know.

This one is not about you:

BAD idea, IMO. The laser should only be used if you intend to fire RIGHT THEN, as a targeting aid.

It's not a deterrent! And you never draw unless you're about to pull that trigger, or you shouldn't draw!

Couldn't agree more.

 

[DougO83]

...

Lurper,
I by no means mean that those who draw their weapons are always cowards. I have a younger brother who is serving in the Marine Corps in Iraq right now, so I have the highest respect for those in service.
I do have a few questions:

Because anyone who assaults you when you are armed has ratcheted the level of the confrontation up to a lethal one.

Unless I announce it, how would someone know I am armed? Also, does announcing that I am carrying constitute a threat?

Unless you live in a third world country, no matter what your feelings or thoughts are, statistically it is extremely unlikely that will happen.

I bring up my neighborhood because I was stabbed days after I stopped a break-in. This was pre-CCW. I was probably 16 and told a guy to leave or I would call the cops. His buddy stabbed me as I came home from work a few days later. My concern is the very real possibility that guns could be used in place of a knife now.

You also seem to contend that an attack on you after you have warned the assailant that you are armed, in fear for your life, calling the police and the assailant has blocked your retreat is not life threatening!

I never mentioned warning the assailant that I was armed. I have not seen in the law books whether or not that constitutes a threat and it was not explicitly covered in my CCW class as I recall. I also never mentioned meeting any of thsoe other conditions except the ability to retreat. If I am in a one-on-one situation, I don't know that I would pull my pistol. Once you start getting numbers on your side, it is a very real possibility that you will see steel.

The implication is that those who don't agree with your course of action are cowards.

The implication is that I cannot see how a punch warrants a bullet to the chest. If this were always the case, I would be dead. Though I seem cocky to you and others I am sure, I was much more wild in my youth and ran around with less than scrupulous people. So, I cannot help but think, when in a dangerous situation, about the many second or third chances I have recieved.

One has to assume that you make such underhanded, thinly veiled insults about people whose backgrounds you have no clue about out of ignorance reinforced with some false sense of bravado bolstered by an unhealthy dose of testosterone and a lack of common sense and courtesy.

No, not true at all. I grew up in an area highly populated by gangs. For anyone who knows the Houston area, I am from the Wallisville road area. It's rough. I've seen people shot and stabbed over petty b.s. Guys will shoot someone else for looking at them wrong or hitting them, even if it's on accident. You must understand that it is with that background in mind that I say shooting someone for landing a punch is an act of cowardice. It is not an attack on anyone in particular, it is an observation made after the first 20 years of my life.

I believe my military record, commendations, and the fact that I have survived several armed confrontations disqualifies me as a coward in most people's books.

See my opening statement on this post. You have my deepest apologies if you feel that my posting my opinion has wronged you somehow.

So, please feel free to state your opinions, but please refrain from passing sweeping judgements on people whom you don't know.

I would only ask the same. Since my first comment kcshooter and others have seemed to make it out that, because of my age, my experience could not possibly be true. You, too, have done the same. No, that is not the reason I have made my statements, that is petty. I know I am a little more cynical thatn most and can be quite caustic. If it was taken in offense, I apologize. But I will not have my experience discounted simply because you haven't lived it.

 

[kcshooter]

Since my first comment kcshooter and others have seemed to make it out that, because of my age, my experience could not possibly be true

No, I have no idea how old you are nor do I know much about your experience. My stand was that your comments go against what is taught in training classes and in many of your posts, they also go against common sense.

 

[Lurper]

DougO83
I don't recall posting anything derogatory about you in any of my posts. I try to stick to the message, not shoot the messenger.
In answer to the question, announcing that you are armed if you are in fear of serious bodily injury or death is not a threat. Nor is displaying your weapon under the same conditions considered brandishment. That is true in AZ, know your state's law.

Announcing you are armed is part of the process, you should do that while you dial 911, all the steps that you take to avoid the confrontation strengthen your position should your attacker press the attack. In most cases, gettng jumped constitutes a threat of serious bodily harm or death. I could care less whether my attacker, witnesses or anyone else thinks my actions cowardly or not. The only thing that is important is that I survive in one piece.


Taken in a vacuum, one punch does not necessarily warrant a bullet in the chest. However, one punch is not usually the entire confrontation. My main point is that by taking one punch you risk being disarmed, injured or killed. My position is that announcing you are armed, calling 911 etc. before punches are thrown will in most cases get you out of the situation. If it does not, then I think most people would consider the situation life threatening.

 

[DougO83]

ok

Lurper,
I had a minute to think about this and wanted to try and figure something out.

Ok, if I know I am going to be assaulted or if I believe that is someone's intent, I may draw my weapon to dissuade them. However, if I am blindsided...what then? Is it not more reasonable to try and physically get the person off of me? And if that works, am I still justified in clearing leather?

 

[Lurper]

The crucial part (in AZ, not sure about TX) is that you be in fear of serious bodily harm or death. If you are blindsided and they guy walks away, that should be a no-brainer. The threat no longer exists. If you are blindsided, the guy jumps on top of you and continues to beat you, then the threat clearly exists.

IMO, it doesn't make sense to try to get them off of you unless you are unable to draw and fire. Then you should try to get in a position that allows you to. If you get them off of you and the don't continue the assault, then you are not justified in shooting them. If they do, you are.

Each situation is different as is each state's laws. Keep that in mind because IRL it is not quite as cut and dry as it is in the comfort of your own computer chair. It is important that you know your state's law on the use of deadly force.