Secondary Non-lethal weapon

Actually, my response wasn't even regarding OC as a backup. I was off topic and I apologize.

If you want to carry extra stuff I would think OC is a fine backup. My argument was against those who were promoting it as an either or option.

If you don't feel your life is in enough danger to use lethal force, you shouldn't be using pepper spray either... you should be leaving the threat.

What disturbed me most was the "I carry a gun for when I'm attacked and pepper spray for when I get myself into a bar brawl" mentality. You shouldn't be getting yourself into those brawls in the first place. They are 100% avoidable. Even if you didn't do anything to provoke it (even though you PROBABLY exchanged words etc.), you can walk away. Anything else isn't a "bar brawl" but rather an assault and should be treated as such (very seriously). If you want to use OC in that situation, that is fine, but don't say your gun is for you being attacked and your OC is for when you couldn't keep yourself out of a fight.
 
Jesus... none of you guys were ever young, stupid, and tough?

Fights happen. I've done my best to avoid them for the last handfull of decades, but I refuse to cower at home when I feel like a beverage and some lively conversation.

I don't start fights, I run from them... but I don't run so well now. I've never sprayed anyone with the vile gunk but I would give it a shot before shooting someone if the guy was unarmed and I couldn't get away.

The use of firearms is the last resort. This is a question of personal morality more than law. There are situations where I would be legally justified in using deadly force, but I wouldn't feel right about it. I don't consider an unarmed man to be fair game for perforation until I fear for my life and am unable to escape the furball. I don't consider common scuffles to be, in general, life-threatening.

Common scuffles present threats of bodily injury. This is where the spray comes in. If it can buy me enough time to get away, I would use it to avoid fisticuffs. There ARE situations where the spray is acceptable, but lethal force would not be right. This is my personal moral standard, not a legal standard. If y'all could live with yourselves after shooting someone because you were afraid of getting punched a few times, it's your legal right I guess.

I'm not going to kill anyone unless I am pretty sure I will die if I don't. The spray would be a desperate attempt to stop events before they get that bad.

I've explained myself enough. If you don't get it by now, more words won't help.
 
If you don't feel your life is in enough danger to use lethal force, you shouldn't be using pepper spray either... you should be leaving the threat.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I disagree on that one. A scuffle could result in an attacker gaining access to your handgun. Leaving the threat isn't always an option. Pepper spray might just discourage someone enough for you to get away. When I started carrying, I realized that my brawling days were over. I'm not going to risk someone getting to my pistol, and I'm not about to shoot some beligerant drunk. I think anyone who carries should strongly consider carrying pepper spray also.
 
The problem with that train of thought is that you assume that:
1. OC may stop the attack.
2. Getting punched is not going to incapacitate you.
3. The BG is just going to be satisfied with beating you up.
4. Deploying oc will not compromise your tactical position if it doesn't work.
5. A punch is not lethal force.

None of which are necessarily true.
Anyone who assaults you when you are armed is a threat to your life. If you have tried to retreat, warned them that you are armed, warned them that you will defend yourself and they still assault you, how can any reasonable person not think such an assault was life threatening? If you are jumped w/out warning, that is certainly life threatening.
Even in the People's Republic of New York, Bernie Goetz would have been acquitted if it hadn't been for the "you don't look so bad, here's another" shot.

One punch can incapcitate you. Once you are incapacitated, you and your gun are fair game. I could live easier with the fact that I killed an unarmed person who assualted me than I could knowing they took my weapon and killed other innocent people. I would suggest that if you are uncomfortable with the idea of having to shoot someone who is unarmed, perhaps OC is all you should carry.
 
sheesh

Its getting pretty deep. I refuse to be drug into another argument reguarding the amount of force any non leo should use, why and when. However I will answer the original question.

A surefire light is a great thing to carry along. It was recomended at a class that each person carry two knives, a flashlight, OC spray, and a sidearm. Now when I first heard that I thought to myself. OMG thats a lot of stuff to carry. But when you break it down and find the items that work for you its amazing how useful these items truly are.

I carry two knives. One small, super light folder, and a larger more durable folder. The little one comes in handy for little tasks like cutting a piece of paper with some information on it. To removing thread and what have you. The larger one I can say I have not used yet (thankfully). But because of the second knife I don't have to worry about dulling the blade.

I keep a small LED flashlight in my back pocket. Its not a brand name anyone would reconize but it gets the job done. And I must say I use that light more than anything I carry with me including my keys! Keeping a flashlight is the smartest thing I believe I do. I don't plan on using it as a said "weapon" but for me its more of a tool. It can assist in clearing a room but I believe in the cop therory of turning the lights on!

I also carry OC spray. http://www.spitfire.us/about.htm This unit is small fits on your key chain and is very very effective. I have been sprayed with this particular unit a couple time for work. And I am a 5'9 215lbs man. It works! And I have no trouble carrying it. Now as far as choosing it over my sidearm. You have to assess each situation differently. I have read so many incounters on this site alone that call for something LTL but it seems everyone forgets. So I'll give you a scenario.

You have a neighbor whom you have known for 10 or more years. You guys have picknicks and parties together all the time. One night he comes stumbling drunk from a taxi to your house. He knocks and demands to be let in. You explain he lives next door and offer to escort him over but he picks up a baseball bat left out by your kids and begins swinging wildly. Now I don't know about you but I am sure not going to kill my neighbor because he's drunk and isn't fully aware of whats going on. But I little bit of spray to calm him down isn't going to leave him permenently affected. He might be pissed the next day but its something we can get over.

Now remove the 10 years part. Same scene but now you just moved in. You don't know this guy, and now you are seriously threatened. Now I'm not going to argue that deadly force isn't called for. But I think a lot people forget that when you pull that trigger you alter someones life. Or the lives of his or her family. I wouldn't want someones little girl or boy to grow up without a mother or father because I was justified.

That is the best answer I have for you. I think carrying all the above is paramount. I chose the responsibility of owning and carrying a sidearm. And that is not a responsibility I take lightly. If and when there comes a time that I have to take someones life to save the life of someone I love or my own. I will make sure that I have made the right decision and that all other options have been exausted. And the day I stop having that mind set is the day I put down my gun for good.
 
oldbillthundercheif said:
Jesus... none of you guys were ever young, stupid, and tough?
Click to expand...

I guess this is why we have a difference in opinion.

The answer is NO.

I have never gotten myself into a brawl, I have never put myself into a situation where anyone would have an excuse to throw a punch at me. I have already mentioned I am a small guy. If some 6' 220lb drunk guy randomly decided it would be fun to beat me, it would definitely be a threat on my life and I sure as heck wouldn't have given him reason.

I would "cower at home" before putting myself in a confrontational situation.

Bottom line, if you ARE the kind who gets into brawls like this, you shouldn't be carrying lethal force at all. Now I see why so many states don't allow carrying in establishments that sell liquor.

It seems wrong to me that anyone would get themselves into a fistfight with an unarmed drunk guy when they KNOW they are armed with pepper spray and a gun. If you are carrying pepper spray and a gun, you have a moral obligation to look like a wussy and a coward rather than enter a confrontation.

P.S. I have been punched once. The guy didn't like I was ignoring his insults. He stood there waiting for me to swing back. I walked away like a coward. I could have thrown insults back and swung back and then would have been totally justified in spraying him, but I chose to WALK AWAY.
 
Nice strawmen flying around. Who mentioned "bar brawls"?

If you spend any time in urban areas, if you go to a RESTAURANT on a Saturday night, there's always a chance that some drunk spilling out of a bar will decide to show off for their friends, or decide that they want to annoy your girlfriend.

And what would you do then? Shoot them? Or OC them in the face and call for the police while they're staggering off?

You see a thug hitting a woman. What would you do? Shoot him? Step in and maybe get knifed? Or pepperspray him?

Some people don't think, it seems.
 
You have a neighbor whom you have known for 10 or more years. You guys have picknicks and parties together all the time. One night he comes stumbling drunk from a taxi to your house. He knocks and demands to be let in. You explain he lives next door and offer to escort him over but he picks up a baseball bat left out by your kids and begins swinging wildly. Now I don't know about you but I am sure not going to kill my neighbor because he's drunk and isn't fully aware of whats going on. But I little bit of spray to calm him down isn't going to leave him permenently affected. He might be pissed the next day but its something we can get over.
Click to expand...

Aside from the extremely minute possibilty of that happening and the fact that OC has been shown to be significantly less effective on those who are drunk, high or insane. You are saying that your neighbor's intent is not to kill you with the bat? Drunkeness is no excuse. I don't care if it is my brother, if he is trying to kill me, he dies. I am not advocating simply shooting anyone, more often than not, you have the option to retreat. In your scenario WF, you could call 911, take yourself and your family into your safe room and wait for the police. You could also just run away.

OC, a flashlight or other LTL is no guarantee that you will not have to shoot someone anyway. They are just as likely to not end the confrontation and put you in a worse tactical position than before you tried them. Also, they may cause you to become involved in a situation that you perhaps should not have becuase you thought OC would end it and it didn't. Carrying a firearm is a grave responsibility. It requires that you keep you emotions in check and that its use be reserved for a last resort. Entering into a fist fight while you are carrying is putting yourself and everyone around you at serious risk. You should walk away. If your assailalnt blocks your retreat, deadly force is justifiable.
 
Jeez

Yet another relevent topic and question deconstructs into a urinating contest because there are differing views on a personal decision.

Might I suggest posting answers as well as pro and con debates like grownups and leaving this type of schoolyard nonsense somewhere else.

People log on here to learn and share. Anti's also log on here to bolster their preconceived notions that gun owners are immature fools. What would either group learn from this thread or any other that has had to be locked by the administrators due to childish behavior.

You guys can do better than this.

Most of the thread WAS better than this.
 
Some people don't think, it seems
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know what you mean.:rolleyes:


I plan to protect myself as I see fit, within the law. I question not my own morals for this, but the morals of the one who is attacking me, especially someone who will attack me after I try to walk away. If I am attacked, I will take the life of the attacker to defend my own. (Or others if need be and doing so doesn't endanger myself.)

If you guys are all so dead set against actually defending yourself with deadly force, maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.
If you think OC is needed, then you should only carry OC.
 
Last edited:
I am not trying to get enmeshed in the debate as both sides have merits, but I do carry Fox Labs Five Point Three OC everywhere I go.

There are no guarantees but I really like options; and OC and a firearm give me more options than just popping a cap in an aggressive person.

Options like, I can spray them down with OC and then when they are writhing around on the ground, I can pop a cap in them :D (joking, joking)
 
And what would you do then? Shoot them? Or OC them in the face and call for the police while they're staggering off?

You see a thug hitting a woman. What would you do? Shoot him? Step in and maybe get knifed? Or pepperspray him?
Click to expand...

You are acting as if the only action is pull out your gun and start blazing away. First of all, OC is not guaranteed to stop anyone. It has been shown to be significantly less effective on drunks, stoners and the insane. It has been shown to increase the level of aggression on those same individuals.

If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon. If the sight of the weapon does not end the confrontation and he assualts you, shoot him. Do not draw the weapon unless you have made the decision to shoot however. If he flees at the sight of the gun, do not pursue him. Give the police a description and direction of travel.

In the second scenario, you call 911 (always stay on the phone until police arrive), yell at the thug to stop, tell him the police are in the way. If he continues to assault her tell him that you are armed and will be forced to intervene if he doesn't stop. If he continues to beat her, clearly her life is in danger. If her life is in danger, in most states deadly force is justified.

In either case, use of a flashlight or OC could put you in a less tactically favorable position. If you choose to carry OC for moral reasons, no one can fault you for that. But that decision is not without risk.

Some people don't think, it seems.
Click to expand...
Duh!
 
If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon.
Click to expand...

Congratulations! You've just BRANDISHED! You win a free trip to jail!
 
Quote:
If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon.
Click to expand...

Congratulations! You've just BRANDISHED! You win a free trip to jail!
Click to expand...


You need to brush up on the laws. And your English.

Brandish:to wave something about, especially a weapon, in a menacing, theatrical, or triumphant way
Click to expand...
 
You probably should check that definition. Displaying a firearm when you are in fear of death or seriously bodily harm does not meet the requirement for brandishment.

Some people don't think, it seems.
Click to expand...
Again, duh.
 
Lurper, as a matter of fact I don't carry iron when I go to the bar. Not because of my personal standards for deadly force, but because it is illegal in my area.

There are plenty of situations where I could see using deadly force against an unarmed adversary as just, but there are also a few situations where it would not be right for a moral man to take a life. We all have to play it by ear.

What does the P in PM stand for? Public?
Nope. It stands for private and it is a useful tool for saying things that need to be said but are not kosher for the forum.
 
Okay, guys.

I deleted the private message that got posted in public, and several posts that were responding to that private message.

I'm going to leave this open -- on the grounds that it can be a fruitful discussion, and should be a fruitful discussion. I do believe y'all are capable of dialing it back a notch, keeping it civil, and discussing issues rather than personalities.

Please don't prove me wrong.

pax
 
I'm bowing out of this thread.

I have already made a bit of a jerk of myself and am a bit embarrassed.

As I have mentioned before, if someone feels better about having a non-lethal way of protecting themselves... more power to them. I have a lot of respect for trying to do the right thing. That was never my argument.

I do however stand firm that if you are carrying, you need to walk away from fights (as these were given as examples of reasons to carry non-lethal weapons). It isn't right to allow yourself to get involved in a brawl just to whip out OC when you decide you want to stop (even if you only verbally got involved).

If that makes me a pansy, I am very proud to be one. I will continue to ignore insults, and walk away from people who try to pick fights with me. Even if someone is insulting my wife, we will simply leave. More importantly, I will continue to avoid areas that might lead to such incidents.

Over and over I see posts on this forum of people explaining that they experience complete changes in their mentality while carrying and find themselves becoming very laid back and avoid confrontations at all costs. It makes me feel good knowing there are so many people who feel this way. I wish everyone did.
 
KCshooter, "brandish" is a legal definition. I suggest you look it up, as it's against the law in most states.

Oh, yes, and as for English, I've a degree in it. Thanks for playing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top