Secondary Non-lethal weapon
- Thread starter gvf
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oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
Very true, but unfortunately it is not always possible to get away from the problem.
Sorry I got a little too excited about this topic, folks. I have not been in a brawl in a very long time, but my memory is sharp and I used to be wild when I was young.
I'm just glad nobody ever shot me over some stupid tussle. It seems like quite a few would have. I'm happy we never met.
Sorry I got a little too excited about this topic, folks. I have not been in a brawl in a very long time, but my memory is sharp and I used to be wild when I was young.
I'm just glad nobody ever shot me over some stupid tussle. It seems like quite a few would have. I'm happy we never met.
Odd that you still can't seem to grasp the legal or dictionary definition of the word then.
If you are in fear of an attack, and pull a weapon to defend yourself, thereby discouraging the attack, that is far from either the legal or Webster's definition of brandishing. Brandishing is pulling it out unnecessarily to threaten someone or to show off. You were drawing because you felt a reasonable fear for your safety. Perfectly legal for a legally carried weapon.
I understand a wild youth. But would you have continued to attack someone who calmly walked away? If the answer is no, as I have a feeling it is, then you never had need to fear this type of thinking. Times have changed, too. 15 years ago we could get into a fight and know it was just a fight. Today, you can't, somebody is bound to be armed.
My Original Reason for Starting the Thread
I began the thread, and maybe should have stated this earlier:
The main reason I am interested in secondary weapons is due to my age (just shy of 60) and, while in as good a shape as I can be - I have bad lungs and a heart problem + several other conditions that make me fear what for another might just be punch or pushing down on the ground. For me it may turn into serious medical harm.
Yes, I know physical condition of the CCW is part of any investigation into weather a shooting was "reasonable" and i may be OK if I shot legally. But I can't help but feel someone could well be doing the "tough guy" routine, not trying to kill me with his hands, and I would like a way of responding one step down from shooting. So I thought of the two I know: OC and Surefire Light. I'll use the latter I think. I already have it in my hand for use as a photgrapher when carrying equipment at night - or just with footing on very dark streets. Using it as well as a "weapon light" while trying to run - best as I can - would already be available. If I can't run far and fast - and I can't - and the guy recovers from the light in his eyes and starts running at me, then it may be time to escalate and I have then attempted a non-lethal response - and failed. But I have succeded in fulfilling our state law and a moral obligation I may feel: to attempt to escape if possible.
I began the thread, and maybe should have stated this earlier:
The main reason I am interested in secondary weapons is due to my age (just shy of 60) and, while in as good a shape as I can be - I have bad lungs and a heart problem + several other conditions that make me fear what for another might just be punch or pushing down on the ground. For me it may turn into serious medical harm.
Yes, I know physical condition of the CCW is part of any investigation into weather a shooting was "reasonable" and i may be OK if I shot legally. But I can't help but feel someone could well be doing the "tough guy" routine, not trying to kill me with his hands, and I would like a way of responding one step down from shooting. So I thought of the two I know: OC and Surefire Light. I'll use the latter I think. I already have it in my hand for use as a photgrapher when carrying equipment at night - or just with footing on very dark streets. Using it as well as a "weapon light" while trying to run - best as I can - would already be available. If I can't run far and fast - and I can't - and the guy recovers from the light in his eyes and starts running at me, then it may be time to escalate and I have then attempted a non-lethal response - and failed. But I have succeded in fulfilling our state law and a moral obligation I may feel: to attempt to escape if possible.
Non-Lethal
From my experience, I prefer the non-lethal approach to conflict resolution. Make no mistake, this rarely means "non-violent" i.e. talking my way out of a situation. I would much rather use a tazer, or spray or something to that effect before engaging an aggressor with my CCW. Yes, I know that tazers can be just as deadly in some instances, but I can't think of one time that spray has caused a death. I try to remember the fact that I tend to be a bit wild and run my mouth and the problem may be worse if I've had a piss-poor day. I would hate to shoot someone just because thay are having a bad day and decide to scuffle with me. As far as avoiding a fight while carrying, this totally depends on your carry method, I use a rather cheap holster, so I would avoid getting in close with someone at all costs. If the only way to do this is to shoot them, then that's how it goes.
From my experience, I prefer the non-lethal approach to conflict resolution. Make no mistake, this rarely means "non-violent" i.e. talking my way out of a situation. I would much rather use a tazer, or spray or something to that effect before engaging an aggressor with my CCW. Yes, I know that tazers can be just as deadly in some instances, but I can't think of one time that spray has caused a death. I try to remember the fact that I tend to be a bit wild and run my mouth and the problem may be worse if I've had a piss-poor day. I would hate to shoot someone just because thay are having a bad day and decide to scuffle with me. As far as avoiding a fight while carrying, this totally depends on your carry method, I use a rather cheap holster, so I would avoid getting in close with someone at all costs. If the only way to do this is to shoot them, then that's how it goes.
Would highly recommend against the OC spray for this reason because of the posibility of blowback. It could affect your breathing and your heart. I would recommend heeding the advice in this post, walk away if you can, be prepared to shoot to end the threat if you can't.
To me, and to the laws, walking away is that step.
No but I can think of many where the spray had no effect and the threat kept coming and now you may not have enough time to draw and fire to defend yourself because of time wasted on the spray.
Even on your worst day, would you have continued to try to fight someone who was trying to walk away?
I do understand why some of you want to consider a LTL form of defense. I just urge you to consider that if it has gone far enough for you to actually be at the point where you are going to use it, do you think it will be to a point where you don't feel like you are in serious danger? Isn't that why you carry? If you are not able to take a life to defend your own, you need to reconsider carrying in the first place.
KC's Point
Yes there is something to be said for keepin that in mind, KC.
One of the reasons I got my CCW is due to a situation I found myself in that - had things gone slightly differently I could have been in a lot of trouble - and my own reaction troubled me afterwards.
A group of neighbors were watching as a man and a woman were really at the point of violence in some drug enhanced or booze enhanced wild street screaming and "making feints" to go at each other - - (this was at midnight). The woman wisely took off and the guy suddenly went nuts and started to run after her, it looked like he was going to really hurt her. I called 911 and without thinking started walking away from the neighbors and towards where the guy was cornering the woman - what I could have done with bad lungs/heart and the whole story is ridiculous - he was young and in some drug/rage high - he pivoted and came towards me and was just feet way screaming and threatening, I didn't move back, felt no fear, and some weird calm was over me as if this wasn't all happening - very luckily the 911 operator was still on the line, heard all this, asked if that was him, I said yes, and quickly there were a mass of sirens converging; the guy took the hint and fled and the cops all chased but I don't know what happened after.
I felt I had acted in a way that could really have gotten me screwed: instictively moving close to help when that was ridiculous and seperated me from all others - not feeling any fear and just standing there exposed etc.
Weird the way you react in the moment. Anyway, I realized having a weapon if the guy I had not left and went at me with a knife or something would have been nice. So, I applied for CCW and 9 mos later (NY) got one for Business Carry.
Word to the wise: you don't necessarily react like you imagine under stress.
Yes there is something to be said for keepin that in mind, KC.
One of the reasons I got my CCW is due to a situation I found myself in that - had things gone slightly differently I could have been in a lot of trouble - and my own reaction troubled me afterwards.
A group of neighbors were watching as a man and a woman were really at the point of violence in some drug enhanced or booze enhanced wild street screaming and "making feints" to go at each other - - (this was at midnight). The woman wisely took off and the guy suddenly went nuts and started to run after her, it looked like he was going to really hurt her. I called 911 and without thinking started walking away from the neighbors and towards where the guy was cornering the woman - what I could have done with bad lungs/heart and the whole story is ridiculous - he was young and in some drug/rage high - he pivoted and came towards me and was just feet way screaming and threatening, I didn't move back, felt no fear, and some weird calm was over me as if this wasn't all happening - very luckily the 911 operator was still on the line, heard all this, asked if that was him, I said yes, and quickly there were a mass of sirens converging; the guy took the hint and fled and the cops all chased but I don't know what happened after.
I felt I had acted in a way that could really have gotten me screwed: instictively moving close to help when that was ridiculous and seperated me from all others - not feeling any fear and just standing there exposed etc.
Weird the way you react in the moment. Anyway, I realized having a weapon if the guy I had not left and went at me with a knife or something would have been nice. So, I applied for CCW and 9 mos later (NY) got one for Business Carry.
Word to the wise: you don't necessarily react like you imagine under stress.
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ok...
Ok...I know many are going to try to crucify me for this, but I don't carry to protect myself from all assailants. I only carry as a means to protect myself against those that appear to be the greatest percieved threat. Somebody just making a threat is nothing new to me, I work security and am a bouncer, so I am highly capable of handling that situation without my weapon. Against a knife, I could defend myself with either my hands or my blade, but I would probably opt for a spray in this situation. I would only use my firearm after using all other resources, except in the case of very extenuating circumstances.
Ok...I know many are going to try to crucify me for this, but I don't carry to protect myself from all assailants. I only carry as a means to protect myself against those that appear to be the greatest percieved threat. Somebody just making a threat is nothing new to me, I work security and am a bouncer, so I am highly capable of handling that situation without my weapon. Against a knife, I could defend myself with either my hands or my blade, but I would probably opt for a spray in this situation. I would only use my firearm after using all other resources, except in the case of very extenuating circumstances.
You do realize that the OC spray had a very high chance of not affecting him because he was altered, right? If he had a knife, came at you, you sprayed, he was not incapacitated and kept coming, you may not have had time to draw if you had been carrying, right? And the fumes or some of the spray with your lungs could have severly affected you, too.
Great point.
Why would you risk it? He has a knife. What if he's better with it than you are?
You guys all seem to think that you are going to come out on top in all these fights, but there are people out there than can kick your ass in a fight, and if he brings a knife, he may be very proficient with it, to pull out a knife in defense against a knife is foolish.
If he pulls out a knife, he just "brought a knife to a gunfight".
again...
KC, I don't know what your experience is, but I have been shot twice and stabbed once or twice in the scope of my job. I have been trained in various forms of hand-to-hand and unarmed v. armed training. I do not have to hide behind my CCW, I have plenty of ways to avoid firing on someone. I believe in second chances, if I didn't have one or two, I wouldn't be here so I am willing to go out of my way to give one to someone else. Moreover, I do not have the time or the funds to sit in court while a bunch of pansies and people not smart enough to get out of jury duty decide whether or not I acted with reasonable force or whether or not my life was truly in danger.
KC, I don't know what your experience is, but I have been shot twice and stabbed once or twice in the scope of my job. I have been trained in various forms of hand-to-hand and unarmed v. armed training. I do not have to hide behind my CCW, I have plenty of ways to avoid firing on someone. I believe in second chances, if I didn't have one or two, I wouldn't be here so I am willing to go out of my way to give one to someone else. Moreover, I do not have the time or the funds to sit in court while a bunch of pansies and people not smart enough to get out of jury duty decide whether or not I acted with reasonable force or whether or not my life was truly in danger.
and by the way
KC, I do not advocate trying to go hand-to-hand with people if you can't. I have been in enough fights to know when I do or don't have a decent chance. That is beside the point. I basically said that despite my ability, I would still opt for something that would distance me from the assailant before resorting to a firearm.
KC, I do not advocate trying to go hand-to-hand with people if you can't. I have been in enough fights to know when I do or don't have a decent chance. That is beside the point. I basically said that despite my ability, I would still opt for something that would distance me from the assailant before resorting to a firearm.
oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
That's for damn sure. A knife is no joke. That situation would get a lethal response as quick as I could clear leather.
There are documented cases of spray causing death and documented cases of OC being ineffective.
It's not a question of "hiding" behind anything. It is a question of responsibility. You have the responsibility when you carry a firearm to exercise more than good judgement. That judgement should be based on the understanding that your actions will have life altering consequences for everyone involved and others who know and love them. That responsibilty means that you should take whatever steps are reasonably necessary to avoid having to employ your firearm. That means that you should not get involved in situations that do not require lethal force - whether you carry LTL or not (since they can spiral out of control very quickly). It does not require you to be a hero waiting to happen, it does not require you to give the BG another chance or even any chance because any chance you give them is an opportunity for them to injure or kill you or others.
Engaging someone in a "scuffle" when you are armed is poor judgement. Thinking that it is "only a fistfight" is courting disaster. One punch can and often will incapacitate you. Carrying LTL will for some people be justification for getting involved because they assume the altercation will stop after employing it. What should happen is that knowing you are carrying a firearem should cause you to be certain that the situation requires lethal force or not get involved.
I have extensive training in the military and have studied Aikido for more than a decade. I am in excellent shape and train/work out daily. So, while I am physically capable of handling many situations, I walk away because of the responsibility I have when I carry. That and one of the first lessons I learned was that no matter how bad you think you are, you will always run into someone who is badder.
WhiteFeather93
New member
Myth and fact
Just FYI,
There has been a lot of down play on the effectiveness of OC. And I feel it is due to a lot of myth and out dated information. Technology continues to progress. And there have been great advances concerning OC.
MACE which is a common name used for OC is not OC. Is was developed by the Mace INC company and did suffer many problems. There was a high percentage of the population who could and were imune to it. There were also a few lawsuits involving the product and victims going blind. The Mace comapny no longer makes the said product and now only manufactors OC spray in their own container.
There are many different companies that produce OC products. And their formulas vary from each other. I have seen one company that claims to use OC, tear gas, and an accelerant chemical in one unit. I have not had the pleasure of getting sprayed by that one yet. Many of the companies have upped the concentration of their product to compete.
There are also advances being made in the delivery of the inflamatory such as gel, and foam. IMO the foam delivery is not appealing because of the risk of having it thrown back at you and wind factors that can be involved. However the gel looks very promising as it tends to stick better and deliver a more concentrated dose faster.
Now although the advances all seem to be heading in the right direction there is still a small percentage that are imune to even OC spray at its highest concentration. But I belive that is only 1 or 3% percent of the population. As far as the above mentioned drug or alchahol induced haze is concerned. The effects of OC spray can last up to an hour and most of the felt effect is felt for 30 minutes or more. I have witnessed a lot of people sober up right quick in reaction to OC. And if they are that intoxicated I wouldn't trust my sidearm as a God sent either.
Although many people think that if shot the perp just falls down that is far from the truth. I have muliple discussion with my local PD's about chasing perps shot in any number of leathal spots and still a chase will ensue for blocks before the said perp dies from blood loss. I do not know how many people on this thread go hunting but if you ever shoot a deer in the heart you still are in quite the chase to claim your prize.
My advice to anyone interested in OC spray is to read up on in. And also check your local laws. Many cities inparticular do not allow the use of OC spray. And some only in certain amounts. And honestly if you have any doubts about the effectiveness of your chosen product get some Johnsons & Johnsons no tear baby soap, a hose or bucket and have someone give you a dose. I recomend the soap from experience, it will help wash the bits of pepper and chemical out of your eyes and you will have a quicker recovery time.
Just FYI,
There has been a lot of down play on the effectiveness of OC. And I feel it is due to a lot of myth and out dated information. Technology continues to progress. And there have been great advances concerning OC.
MACE which is a common name used for OC is not OC. Is was developed by the Mace INC company and did suffer many problems. There was a high percentage of the population who could and were imune to it. There were also a few lawsuits involving the product and victims going blind. The Mace comapny no longer makes the said product and now only manufactors OC spray in their own container.
There are many different companies that produce OC products. And their formulas vary from each other. I have seen one company that claims to use OC, tear gas, and an accelerant chemical in one unit. I have not had the pleasure of getting sprayed by that one yet. Many of the companies have upped the concentration of their product to compete.
There are also advances being made in the delivery of the inflamatory such as gel, and foam. IMO the foam delivery is not appealing because of the risk of having it thrown back at you and wind factors that can be involved. However the gel looks very promising as it tends to stick better and deliver a more concentrated dose faster.
Now although the advances all seem to be heading in the right direction there is still a small percentage that are imune to even OC spray at its highest concentration. But I belive that is only 1 or 3% percent of the population. As far as the above mentioned drug or alchahol induced haze is concerned. The effects of OC spray can last up to an hour and most of the felt effect is felt for 30 minutes or more. I have witnessed a lot of people sober up right quick in reaction to OC. And if they are that intoxicated I wouldn't trust my sidearm as a God sent either.
Although many people think that if shot the perp just falls down that is far from the truth. I have muliple discussion with my local PD's about chasing perps shot in any number of leathal spots and still a chase will ensue for blocks before the said perp dies from blood loss. I do not know how many people on this thread go hunting but if you ever shoot a deer in the heart you still are in quite the chase to claim your prize.
My advice to anyone interested in OC spray is to read up on in. And also check your local laws. Many cities inparticular do not allow the use of OC spray. And some only in certain amounts. And honestly if you have any doubts about the effectiveness of your chosen product get some Johnsons & Johnsons no tear baby soap, a hose or bucket and have someone give you a dose. I recomend the soap from experience, it will help wash the bits of pepper and chemical out of your eyes and you will have a quicker recovery time.
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There are indeed wide variances between makers of OC. While some are apparently near-useless, LEOs seem to constantly endorse Fox Labs as being effective.
And the last time someone around here used it on someone, a lady on a guy who was grabbing on her, the police found him a block away, screaming and pushing his face in the snow.
I'd call that effective.
And the last time someone around here used it on someone, a lady on a guy who was grabbing on her, the police found him a block away, screaming and pushing his face in the snow.
I'd call that effective.
...
Not sure what point you were going for here, unless it was to repeat what I had just written. I am fully aware of my responsibility when I carry. The knowledge of that responsibility is why I advocate LTL methods. But it sure looks a whole lot like people here just wanna blast every punk who comes up and tries to give them a little static. I try to hold myself to a higher standard than that.
This is highly unlikely in conflict with the average moron. As a bouncer for about 5 years, I have taken my fair share of blows and have yet to see one take me out. I am not saying that they don't leave an impression, but they certainly don't incapacitate me or anyone else I've ever worked with. Granted, we have more extensive training than most people in a bar and are always at an advantage because we are sober.
I couldn't agree with this more, but if I am engaged by an asailant and do not percieve a need to draw and cannot truly retreat, why pull my sidearm when a blast of 5.3 million SHU will do the trick?
This is also very true. What happens, though, if you shoot some gangbanger at a club or something. Doesn't matter where, could be in the middle of a parking lot. What happens if you shoot said gangbanger and his friends, seeing your "hero" faceon the news, come put a few hundred rounds down range into your house and your family? Now what do you do? LTL could have avoided that. That is purely hypothetical, but we live in a society where the bad people have a better chance at getting the guns. Talk about meeting someone who is badder.
I never said to get involved in a situation when armed, but if you are engaged or threatened, is it really necessary to pull CCW first? Sometimes, you run the risk of getting alot of people shot, including yourself. If de-escalation tactics do not work and you have nowhere to go, why is it the first reaction to go for the steel?
Not sure what point you were going for here, unless it was to repeat what I had just written. I am fully aware of my responsibility when I carry. The knowledge of that responsibility is why I advocate LTL methods. But it sure looks a whole lot like people here just wanna blast every punk who comes up and tries to give them a little static. I try to hold myself to a higher standard than that.
This is highly unlikely in conflict with the average moron. As a bouncer for about 5 years, I have taken my fair share of blows and have yet to see one take me out. I am not saying that they don't leave an impression, but they certainly don't incapacitate me or anyone else I've ever worked with. Granted, we have more extensive training than most people in a bar and are always at an advantage because we are sober.
I couldn't agree with this more, but if I am engaged by an asailant and do not percieve a need to draw and cannot truly retreat, why pull my sidearm when a blast of 5.3 million SHU will do the trick?
This is also very true. What happens, though, if you shoot some gangbanger at a club or something. Doesn't matter where, could be in the middle of a parking lot. What happens if you shoot said gangbanger and his friends, seeing your "hero" faceon the news, come put a few hundred rounds down range into your house and your family? Now what do you do? LTL could have avoided that. That is purely hypothetical, but we live in a society where the bad people have a better chance at getting the guns. Talk about meeting someone who is badder.
I never said to get involved in a situation when armed, but if you are engaged or threatened, is it really necessary to pull CCW first? Sometimes, you run the risk of getting alot of people shot, including yourself. If de-escalation tactics do not work and you have nowhere to go, why is it the first reaction to go for the steel?
..
Whitefeather...I honestly have never looked into the stats, but when we trained with it, my high pain tolerance went out the window. I thought I was pretty dang tough until that first blast from ASP got me in the eyes. The eyes weren't as bad as the inhalation of the dirty spray. That was terrible.
Whitefeather...I honestly have never looked into the stats, but when we trained with it, my high pain tolerance went out the window. I thought I was pretty dang tough until that first blast from ASP got me in the eyes. The eyes weren't as bad as the inhalation of the dirty spray. That was terrible.
Actually, OC and mace are two different things. Mace is an older chemical CN. OC is oleoresin capsicum and is derived from peppers. The two have similar yet different effects. OC is generally accepted as more effective. However, OC has an effectiveness of between 70 & 90 percent depending on whose stuidies you believe. It is acknowledged to be less effective on people who are drunk, stoned, insane or with high levels of adrenaline and in fact has been shown to make some people more aggressive.
I have seen several guys I was in the military with take people out with one punch on a regular basis, even guys who were much bigger than them. Your statement makes the (possibly fatal) assumption that anyone you face will be an "average moron", drunk and/or less well trained than you. That will not always be the case.
Because OC is almost as likely not to do the trick. If you are in danger of serious bodily harm or death, you should use deadly force. If you are not in fear of serious bodily harm or death you should walk away. Generally if a situation only calls for LTL, then you still have the option of retreating. How could anyone not think that a physical assault on you after blocking your retreat could be anything but life threatening? Of course, this only applies to civilians, not LEO, bouncers, security officers, etc..
If you choose to carry LTL for moral reasons that's fine. But it is better to have the mindset that if it is not worth taking a life over, it is not worth getting involved in.
My point was that your statement seems to be that those who avoid confrontations are "hiding behind" their ccw.
I have seen several guys I was in the military with take people out with one punch on a regular basis, even guys who were much bigger than them. Your statement makes the (possibly fatal) assumption that anyone you face will be an "average moron", drunk and/or less well trained than you. That will not always be the case.
Because OC is almost as likely not to do the trick. If you are in danger of serious bodily harm or death, you should use deadly force. If you are not in fear of serious bodily harm or death you should walk away. Generally if a situation only calls for LTL, then you still have the option of retreating. How could anyone not think that a physical assault on you after blocking your retreat could be anything but life threatening? Of course, this only applies to civilians, not LEO, bouncers, security officers, etc..
You're right, it is purely hypothetical to the point that it really doesn't warrant consideration. You don't have to have your face on tv, the fact is that the odds of you using a firearm for defense are incredibly small, the odds of using it on a gangbanger even smaller and the odds of his buddies retaliation smaller still. However it is worth commenting again on the "magic bullet" that some claim OC to be. It is not. Read the last issue of Police News. Those are the exact words: " . . . not the magic bullet everyone first thought it to be."
If you choose to carry LTL for moral reasons that's fine. But it is better to have the mindset that if it is not worth taking a life over, it is not worth getting involved in.
Macksruger1
Inactive
Ever thought about...
Have you ever thought about a laser grip for your side arm? I have recently put one on my browning high power and it seems to me to be the best thing you could buy for your pistol. It only messes me up when I am shooting during the day, but if you’re in a dark place it could be a life saver. Avoid, avoid, avoid, I don’t want to have to shoot someone, or be shot myself. Now that doesn’t mean I am a puss (if my life or families lives or at stake I am going to kill), it means I value my life and have a family to support. So the reason I bought the laser in the first place is the intimidation factor. Just imagine if someone put that red dot on your chest. Puts a little different spin on things doesn’t it? It’s harder to conceal my pistol, so I hardly ever carry (which I should carry more often, and I do have a concealed carry license). But my pistol is always in my truck or night stand along with a surefire flashlight. My surefire is small (fits in the palm of my hand), and I always keep it with my pistol. When you put the surefire and laser grip together you have a very effective combination for avoiding a situation, but at the same time you are very protected (all you have to do is pull the trigger).
Have you ever thought about a laser grip for your side arm? I have recently put one on my browning high power and it seems to me to be the best thing you could buy for your pistol. It only messes me up when I am shooting during the day, but if you’re in a dark place it could be a life saver. Avoid, avoid, avoid, I don’t want to have to shoot someone, or be shot myself. Now that doesn’t mean I am a puss (if my life or families lives or at stake I am going to kill), it means I value my life and have a family to support. So the reason I bought the laser in the first place is the intimidation factor. Just imagine if someone put that red dot on your chest. Puts a little different spin on things doesn’t it? It’s harder to conceal my pistol, so I hardly ever carry (which I should carry more often, and I do have a concealed carry license). But my pistol is always in my truck or night stand along with a surefire flashlight. My surefire is small (fits in the palm of my hand), and I always keep it with my pistol. When you put the surefire and laser grip together you have a very effective combination for avoiding a situation, but at the same time you are very protected (all you have to do is pull the trigger).