School Shootings In General - What is the solution

After continuing to read all of the great responses, I want to make a few assertions.

1> Guns are not the issue when it comes to school shootings.
2> The parents in today's society are drastically different than the parents of the previous generation.
One thought about that comment first...If the kids today being raised by these uncaring, more concerned about work, divorce rate at an all-time high, etc. parents grow up and have their own kids, will this cycle repeat itself or will the generation fight back and say I do not want the kids that I grew up with, so I will be a better parent.​
3> Arming teachers and or students (at the college level) is a reactionary response, it will not prevent the shootings, but will hopefully minimize the body count, except in few instances as some posters pointed out where the student may think twice about a rampage if he knows some people there are armed.
4> There are more school shooting today than there were 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago, the occurence of them has gone up.
5> Media attention to these lunatics will only fuel other lunatics to do the same to get the attention, the one-up attitude.
6> The answer for a solution to the problem is impossible, it starts at the individual level, it must be the parents who decide enough is enough I am going to raise my kids right. No bill or law or security force or police officer will be able to stop these kids from starting the terror in the first place.

It is a sad day when you have to sum up the solution to a problem is that there is no solution and the problem only grows with time...the road ahead is bleak, dark, and dreary and without a doubt there will be another incident in the near future.
 
I offer this in respect to how parents raise their kids:

While raising our son I had no reservations in regards to whipping his butt. (Another reason I like living in Texas; it is legal here!) He knew and respected this from the time he could walk. He gave me no grief at any time because he was well aware of the outcome. My wife would never use any type of real punishment and got a load of grief from him over the years.

He was never a problem in school other than the usual peccadilloes in which boys are involved. He wasn’t afraid of the school authorities. He knew that he would have to deal with me at home.

I once overheard him talking to a friend. The friend wanted to know why he was so cautious regarding his actions. My son replied “Because my dad will kick my a$$!”

Parental input can have a huge impact on how kids act. It is not the ultimate answer as some kids simply will not respond to any type of authority. But I believe that there would be far fewer problems in this world if the parents would spend less time paying for new cars and more time raising their kids.
 
Who brings a gun to school?

The harrassed kid, the subject of bullying brings a gun to school. Maybe school massacres are good? The threat that some one may do something keeps harrassers within limits, even though I wished the school system would do more to curb harrassing.

Isn't that why you own a gun yourself? To protect yourself from crime...
 
The harrassed kid, the subject of bullying brings a gun to school. Maybe school massacres are good? The threat that some one may do something keeps harrassers within limits, even though I wished the school system would do more to curb harrassing.

Except that even if this was a desired method to reduce bullying (it isn't), it doesn't really work. For some reason I doubt schoolyard bullying at any grade level saw a significant decline after, say, Columbine. Partly because there is usually more focus on how depraved/inhuman the attackers are than any treatment they may have received at the hands of their classmates (since bullying is considered to be "normal" by many, and it also comes off as blaming the victims), and partly because it's just something kids (and, while they're generally more subtle, adults as well) do.

Besides which, it's also possible that the bullying in question may be more perceived than real; it appears that this may have been the case with Seung-Hui Cho, for instance. The impression I got from what I read about him is that most of the damage in that case was done long before he showed up at college; so most of the bullies that may have influenced his mental state in the past weren't even there to be targeted.
 
Besides which, it's also possible that the bullying in question may be more perceived than real; it appears that this may have been the case with Seung-Hui Cho, for instance.

Mental harassment can cause the same feelings, sometimes worse than physical harassment.

Of course, it is not an excuse to do these things. But, it is a fact.
 
Mental harassment can cause the same feelings, sometimes worse than physical harassment.

Of course, it is not an excuse to do these things. But, it is a fact.

When referring to "bullying," I'm referring to mental/emotional harassment as well. My point is that in Cho's case, it appears that even that may have been more imagined than real (EDIT: in college, that is)...the impression I got is that the real damage was done back in grade school and that people in college were more or less cool to him.

But the previous harassment had screwed with his mental/emotional state enough that he still perceived everybody as out to get him, even though they weren't anymore.

So unfortunately his targets ended up being his college classmates who hadn't done anything to him, rather than the grade school classmates that really screwed him up.

Of course, I could be wrong...maybe all his peers in college were real jerks. But it's how it seemed from what I read. And even if wasn't the case here, I think taken instead as a hypothetical this illustrates how somebody could end up targeting an entire group of people that had nothing to do with their harassment.

Sometimes by the time somebody reaches the point where they are willing and eager to commit mass murder, they're not exactly reasonably and rationally assessing the actions of others towards them anymore. Funny, that.
 
JC, I got ya. And, I read a lot of the same stuff you did.

It really annoys me when I see these guys who have friends and family who care yet they blame so much on this crap. Sometimes I don't get it. Then I think about my years in school and still where I am pretty much a loner (though I don't like to be), with really no good friends and a distant, unsupportive and affection-lacking family. My school years were filled with bullies on my back, and being outcasted by fellow students and school staff.

I often wonder if these guys who have friends and in some cases family who care...how their panzy, whiny, pitiful azzes would have reacted were they in my shoes.
 
sw_florida,

I sort of understood, not agreed, but understood where you were going with that until you said...
Isn't that why you own a gun yourself? To protect yourself from crime...

I think that there is a drastic difference between getting made fun of or being the loner in school and a crime in and of itself.

None of these victims would ever deserve a bullet for making fun of someone or calling someone else a name, sure it sucks to be made fun of, but it does not mean you can go postal on someone for it.

I do not sympathize with any of these kids who took it to the extreme when they were bullied, chances are if they were not bullied this would not have happened, but who is to say if they were not bullied in high school or college, then they entered the workplace and were given the sh*t work, they wouldn't go off. I think sometimes bullying makes you tougher and harder, at least it did for me
 
Heres a silly idea. If a child (regardless if he/she is 18 or not) brings a fire arm to school and goes on a shooting spree, regardless if the shooter is killed or taken alive, the parents do what ever time the shooter gets(or would have got). Just mabey parents of screwed up kids will start paying attention and know whats going on in the kids life and know their mental state. Mabey they will even start looking at how the kid lives and is the kid stock up on guns and ammo.

Just my .02
 
EMG, isn't blaming the source of the kids (the parents) to the extent of putting them in jail kind of like blaming the firearm manufacturer's for supplying the weapons used in crimes?
 
Do you know everything your teenage kid is doing at their friends' house? You shouldn't be held responsible for the irresponsibility of other parents.
 
A severe beating can cause physical damage for life. That's covered under self defense act. Prolonged mental harrassing can make a person mentally ill for life. Isn't that just as bad? Mentally handicapped for life... If the mental threat exists, is real, and you feel that you are going down, mentally, beyond return, why would that not be covered under the self defense act? I support kids who fight back. It will happen again. I didn't say I justified get-even shots. Shoot when the situation arrives. The passive principals have many lost souls on their hands. Personally, I was mentally harrassed by kids of an IQ of 5 or something. Hoards of kids, day after day, year after year. When suicide is your only way out, why is a shoot out not justified? Get real, will you?
 
Originally posted by CrazyIvan007: The problem is that Illegal Alien kids are not held to the same standard. They can graduate high school without even knowing how to read, speak or write English.

Do you have any links that prove this? Or maybe a link to a schools website that says this? Anything or is this just a "fact" based on your experience?

Remember the plural of anecdote is not data.
 
A severe beating can cause physical damage for life. That's covered under self defense act. Prolonged mental harrassing can make a person mentally ill for life. Isn't that just as bad? Mentally handicapped for life... If the mental threat exists, is real, and you feel that you are going down, mentally, beyond return, why would that not be covered under the self defense act? I support kids who fight back. It will happen again. I didn't say I justified get-even shots. Shoot when the situation arrives. The passive principals have many lost souls on their hands. Personally, I was mentally harrassed by kids of an IQ of 5 or something. Hoards of kids, day after day, year after year. When suicide is your only way out, why is a shoot out not justified? Get real, will you?

Are you serious? The way this is written and interpreted appears to me that you think it was ok for these kids to do this because they were mentally tormented or in some cases if not all, physically damaged, maybe a fight here or there, etc. As far as I know, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, none of these kids have been the subject of a "severe beating" meaning one in which would be grounds for self defense to the degree of killing someone. Second, most of these kids did NOT just pick off the ones who picked on them, some did, but MOST did shoot at anything that moved, esp. the Va Tech shooter. Third, how would any type of confrontation by any of these "bullies" therefore allow the injured party (the shooter) to leave, plan for who knows how long this plan to mow everyone down, and then execute that plan with intentions of murder. To me self defense would be reacting to something in the present that JUST happened, not getting revenge for being picked on weeks later. And sorry to hear you were mentally harassed by some kids when you were in school or college or w/e, but suck it up...killing the person in revenge does nothing for your psychy.
 
I'm chiming in from the back row here, but I don't intend my random suggestion to be a be all end all solution, but rather, it's taking a leap based on many of yalls posts thus far.

Bullys were mentioned as a problem. I agree, I think they are (being bullied myself in back high school - but I'm saying that to show I understand being on the receiving end enough to recognize that it does hurt). I was raised properly and had a strong group of friends so these bullys eventually became nobodies because I was able to stay out of their mental traps. I had better things to do than feel sorry for myself. I think my Id still says "crush their face with my boot if I ever see them again", but my Ego is properly developed to override the Id. Good. Now, moving on.

Fixing the bullys. How is that done? Fixing the parents, how is that done? As more than likely stated above, you can't just kill someone in retaliation. And also mention was that often bullys go on to live their lives while the bullied is left to deal with not only the emotional problems s/he's likey suffering, but also dealing with the social, legal and any other problem that stems from the abuse. Should he act on it, some folks said, the parent should also serve punishment. Ok, I think I may agree on that if the parent is found negligent.

But I also add, make the parent of the bully responsible. Make them serve their dues. After all, could it be negligent of a parent to ignore, or worse deny "Oh I didn't know he was being mean to other kids" knowledge of how his/her child was behaving at school? I know we all know people like that, "Oh not my Tommy/Kimmy, s/he would never say/do/act anything like that!" Ok, parents like that enable their kids to be rotten. They enable them to have these absolutely "non-Golden Rule" attitudes and worse yet, not care.

I guess in summary, basically, it seems to take (at least) two to tango, right? Then hold them both accountable, plus each one's parent(s). If parents refuse to be aware and involved, make them aware and involved.
 
Shorts...

Can you expound on how you would hold the bullies parents accountable? Would that constitute some type of fine for them, or anything involving the police? I am just curious, I mean it definitely sounds somewhat reasonable to hold some parents accountable for their kids actions, in other words, its a great way for them to understand and know what little johnny does at school and will possibly make him think twice about bullying if he is getting tarred and feathered at home because he now got mom and dad in trouble.

Granted, maybe I am somewhat naive as to the effects some of these teasings and hazings can have on some of these kids, but hasn't these type of schoolroom problems and bullies been around for hundreds of years? Why now do we see the fallback to using a gun to kill someone who maybe threw you into a locker or called you a name?
 
The initial idea is for mandatory professional counseling (both parents ands students). I would think a counselor who is NOT tied in with the school would be more effective. The reason for that is I believe students these days can look at the teachers and administrators they see everyday and can easily discount them as authoritative figures because 'they know them'. Of course, this costs money to pay counselors and the question "where does it come from?" is raised. Then "when" and "for how long" need to be figured as well.

Maybe based on a performance or awareness presentation the student does for his fellow classmates, similar to presentations done for drinking and driving, drugs, and some of the other preventative-type awareness briefs (over a span of time/minimum number of presentations). Where I get that idea from is I saw a young man on Dr Phil who had killed a pedestrian because he was texting on his phone while driving. The man's family forgave the young man. On thing they requested that he be a spokesman and teach others the dangers of texting/distracted driving. So, he travels and does presentations across the US, tells his story and teaches others. That young man was on Dr Phil, brought in by Dr Phil to talk to a young lady who was so flippant and was doing the very same things while driving - she just did not get it yet that it could happen to her. And the funny thing is, the mom of the girl was sitting right next to her, and she was still on the fence about taking away her daughter's phone in order to "do what it takes". The mom of the young man stepped in and gave some mom-to-mom advice. In that picture, the girl and her mom is the "before" shot, the young man and his mom are the "after".

Sorry I've veered a bit.


Bullying has been around for longer than we have. You're right. But what has changed greatly is that society is more permissive as a whole to everything. Subjects that use to be private are now public. The media has changed. Information availability has changed - information is easily had...the internet verses going to school to study or the library to read up on a subject you don't know about. Money has changed things. Popular attitudes and cultures have branched extensively. "personal expression" is highly encouraged, however, moral guidelines and standard rules and consequences aren't as valued. I think an overly simplistic way of putting it is, people have no fear. They don't worry about repercussions much and there's no personal accountability. I think there's less of a moral center these days. There's so much that has changed along with the bullying. Personal foundations in individuals these days are not 'built' as strong as they have in year past. They cannot intellectually handle the stress overload and react rather than think.

If bullys are identified, then that's a kid with a problem. That means this kid needs more help and rearing than s/he has gotten thus far.

I realize that "fixing" this problem one by one is a slow and expensive process. Those two factors alone would get any project shut down. I'm merely talking through my thoughts on the subject and offering them up for others to consider and spin ideas from. I certainly don't know the answers - it is a complex problem.
 
Sadly, No quick fix

Interesting thread, and full of reasonable discussion. After having read through, I have a few observations.

In my opinion (which is worth what you pay for it), the basic underlying cause is society, but not the way usually thought. 40-50 years ago, even 30 years ago we did not have this aberration, at least as a common phenomenon. Even though guns were more common, and much more easily available, these kinds of mass shootings just didn't happen. Mabye one in a decade, but mostly not even that. So what is different about today?

Lots of things are diffferent, but which one(s) are the reason so many disturbed individuals are so willing to take a gun and kill innocents (planning in the process the ending of their own lives)?

Here are some points to ponder;

Selfishness / Greed
The oft repeated (and accurate) claim that one reason these things happen is that parents are not doing a proper job of being parents. But WHY are parents not doing the same job that parents did in previous generations?

Perhaps selfishness is a possible answer. And by selfishness I mean the whole idea of having what you want, and when you want it, and the linked idea that the world owes it to you. Call it greed, or selfishness, or another name, the results are clear, at least to me. Too many people are only interested in themselves, and their own gratification. Most are not directly to blame for this, as our society in general has trained (and raised) them to be this way, over the past 40 years or so. The "progressive" thinkers and ideas that came out of the later 1960s focus on it. And we have spent the last few decades glorifying it in our entertainment media, and teaching it in our schools and colleges. We have shaped our society this way, and we are reaping the results.

All the popular explanations, lack of parenting, breakup of the family unit, loss of moral foundations, etc. etc., it all comes back to the individual greed and selfishness, and the idea that these things are not only OK, but something to be sought after.

Too many parents are too interested in their children only as a status symbol. To them, their children are only one more material possession, and although they deny the very thought, it is how they act.

The two income household. Why? One answer is greed. Nothing more, and nothing less. Why must both parents work full time? To make enough money, right? But enough for what? Enough money so they can enjoy themselves. Nice house, new cars, all the comsumer toys they want, in short all the recognised material signs of success. They don't need them, but they do want them. And to get them, they ignore their base responsibilitites as parents, to be parents. If this isn't greed (a form of selfishness) please explain to me what it is.

Another side of the coin is (and this coin has many sides) the fact that too few parents today understand what it is to be a parent. They ignore their children to earn the money to give their children everything, in a desperate desire to be liked. And the end result is that while they may be liked by their children, they are seldom respected. And if children do not respect their parents (the most basic authority figures in their lives) it is that much more difficult for them to respect any other (and more distant) authority figures such as schools and govt.

Our social systems, govt and schools have gone a long way to ensuring that parents, even if so inclined, are not free to raise (and discipline) their children in the manner of our ancestors. In our overwhelming zeal to prevent cases of real abuse, we have sown the seeds of what we are dealing with today. The idea that because what we used to do wasn't perfect (and nothing involving humans is or can be) so all our past ideas are wrong and should no longer be used is, I feel, drastically flawed.

Loss of influence of religion is another factor. I don't mean zealotry, or going to church every sunday, or to prayers five times a day (or what ever your creed requires of you), I mean the basic underlying belief that there is a right and wrong, a good and an evil, and that there is certain punishment (in this life or the next) for evil. Most folks still claim a belief, but how many actually do believe, deep down inside? With a constant 24/7 bombardment from the entertainment media of (mostly) the opposite message, can you blame them?

And here is yet another side of that coin, the electronic media (including the Internet). A tool for shaping the hearts and minds of men unlike any other in history in it's influence and pervasiveness. And, because of our "free" society, we get what sells. No matter what that is. Again, greed. News is sold to us, so we get the news that sells. And it is the greed of those who sell us our entertainment that continually pushes for more, more, more. To make money, everyone is out to give us more for our buck, so our buck will go to them. Movies, TV, all of it, it just keeps getting more and more graphic and extreme. Because it sells. Because what was entertaining yesterday is passe today, and we will send our bucks elsewhere. So we wind up with our entertainment being only somewhat more civilised than the Roman Arena. Violence and sex predominate. How many fictional murders does the average child see on the tube every year? And how graphic? And then they see the same actor in a different role the next week, or even the next hour. Do this over decades, and how can it not have an effect?

Chronic exposure to poisions either kills outright, or builds up a tolerance. Where does it look like we are now?

I commend those folks who believe the parents ought to be responsible, but I wonder at the wisdom of punishing the parents for their child's actions. The idea has some merit, but only if the parents can actually have an influence on their child's actions. Punishment of the parent(s) by fines, or even jail, may have some benefit in some situations, but if applied uniformly has the potential to harm more than help. And it doesn't even get to the root of the problem. Like gun control laws, it is a feel good response that has little or no real world benefit. Little Johnny skips school, fine Mom & Dad. Great. End of problem, right? Sorry, no. If Mom & Dad are well off, a fine is an inconvience, nothing more. And if they are barely making a living, fines can cause great hardship, and to no real benefit, as society has reached a point where, generally, parents are punished for physically disciplining children, what do the parents have left to ensure their children do behave? Not very much.

We glorify the killers in our media, we revel in victim status, we train children daily to do what we claim are the wrong things, we remove the authority of parents (when they actually try to use it), and the state does a really poor job trying to replace the parents, and then we wonder what happened?

We didn't get here overnight, and we won't get out of this mess overnight either. One small step (and one I practiced) is to teach our children that they need not be sheep, nor cattle to the slaughter. No matter what a teacher might say, it is wrong just to hunker down and hope evil passes you by. "do not go gentle into that good night" is more than just poetry, it is something that when realised may mean you do not go into that good night at all. Or if you do, at least you go with the knowledge you tried.

Anybody wonder what might have been the outcome if the VT shooter had opened the door to the second classroom and been met with a fire axe instead of cowering students? When it was "common sense" that violence was met by violence in return, we did not have mass shootings. Are we really better off today?

Just some points to ponder (and not all by any means).
 
Thank You 44 AMP my thoughts also but cannot put it in words, hopefully
more like you understand and in the future work to restore my country
and yours to what it was meant to be.
 
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