School Shootings In General - What is the solution

I admit that my knowledge of this area is very weak, but my understanding is that in Israel, where you have suicide bombers and a sizeable section of the populace bent on killing Jews, the Israeli schools require teachers to be armed. I haven't heard of any school shootings in Israel lately. It would be worth taking a look.

I'm not advocating that we require teachers here to be armed. However, I wonder whether allowing teachers to be carry concealed, after going through the appropriate state procedures, would help. Liability insurance costs? Yeah. But liability insurance will probably go up soon anyway as shootings become more commonplace.

Yes, it's possible that some teacher could go crazy or leave his weapon were some kid could get it, but how often do those things happen now to CCWers roaming around everywhere in public? Why would teachers be any more or less responsible that your average CCW holder? If the Israelis can effectively manage such a policy - and I'm guessing they do - why can't we? Plus, the school (actually, its insurer) could sue the irresponsible teacher, so the insurance rates probably wouldn't go up all that much. Plus, there are other ways to shift the insurance burdens.
 
Arming teachers is not a solution... its a reaction.

Solving the problem means keeping it from happening in the first place, not reacting to it after it has occurred.

I think the problem is related to the breakdown of the family, and poor parenting. Solving it is therefore impossible; we aren't going back to the days of stay at home moms, fathers who didn't run off, and Ozzie and Harriet.
 
Divemedic and Unregistered said it well.

Real zero tolerance policy that will result in students being expelled permanently...I think this alternative school is BS anyway. The one I was in (I got into a little trouble) was basically just a room filled with cubicles, no interaction, communication, or anything but reading and writing from an assignment notebook and staring at the walls until time to go home.

Parenting or lack thereof is also something that I believe contributes to kids snapping like this...there's something either missing in the home or the kid just has some screws loose that should be identified by the parents.

The schools in my area are making an effort to enforce parental accountability by fining the parents for infractions by the students...I'm talking about a $500 fine for a school fight and similar fines for backtalking and skipping school. I'm not sure I agree with that but the principals have no problems getting parents to come in to talk to them in hopes they can get that fine reduced or waived.

Along with that $500 ticket comes a Child Protective Services agent and case file to ensure the kids aren't abused after the ticket. I don't agree with CPS being involved in the situation as it restricts legitimate discipline to children and ties the parents hands behinds their back.

It may sound corny but I wish parents could keep in mind that kids are blessings...I'm sure it's not that easy in the teenage years or with other domestic issues going on but the erosion of family values is more to blame for most of this increased violence than any firearms manufactured.
 
Every shooting has one or more things in common:
1 the shooter was a trouble maker
2 the shooter was lashing out at a bully
So, it seems to me that you have zero tolerance for that sort of behavior.
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You are right about bullying being a major cause of school shootings, and of fights in general. Eliminating it will be hard, of course, as it seems to be pretty natural for some kids to bully, and natural for victims to want revenge.

IMO, there are two types of kid that may lash out at school. The first is likely to have an inflated sense of self-importance, and feel justified in resorting to violence in retaliation to being "dissed". It's a fine line between encouraging "self esteem" and inadvertently encouraging touchy and easily offended junior egomaniacs. The second type are downtrodden victims of bullying who have got the message that because they are unfairly treated, they have the right to get revenge, sometimes lethally. Workplace shootings seem to have similar psychological aspects.

There does seem to be a copycat aspect to school shootings, and also the perp's hope for fame, if only fleeting. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm glad I don't have any kids in school!
 
It may sound corny but I wish parents could keep in mind that kids are blessings...I'm sure it's not that easy in the teenage years or with other domestic issues going on but the erosion of family values is more to blame for most of this increased violence than any firearms manufactured.
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Not corny at all sir and your correct. Single parent homes, or two parents working 50+ hours per week paying for poor quality items they don't need. Poor values, no self disipline, Child care from birth, mom dad not at home or drinking perhaps doing drugs,etc. The question is how do we change, no laws will ever correct the problems, sad to say it will take hard times to make people understand what is important in life. Just my opinion.
 
I am glad others see this problem as I do. It is a problem with our culture. Parents aren't doing their job. Families are breaking down and dad's are leaving. Both parents are working to buy stuff they really don't need, so no one is at home to raise the kids. I don't see anyway to reverse this trend. Our government wants it this way, they want us to spend spend spend, and have pushed the idea of women working outside the home as an equal rights issue. Somewhere along the way, everyone forgot that child raising is the single most important thing that a generation can do to ensure the survival of a civilization.

Arming teachers is reactionary. It doesn't solve the problem. Anyone who thinks armed teachers is a solution hasn't really thought this problem through.
 
Arming teachers is not a solution... its a reaction.

Solving the problem means keeping it from happening in the first place, not reacting to it after it has occurred.

I think the problem is related to the breakdown of the family, and poor parenting. Solving it is therefore impossible
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So if:
  • Solving the problem is "keeping it from happening in the first place."
and
  • The problem is "related to the breakdown of the family, and poor parenting."
and
  • "Solving it is therefore impossible."
Then what is YOUR proposed solution? You've criticized others but haven't offered anything yourself.
Arming teachers is reactionary. It doesn't solve the problem. Anyone who thinks armed teachers is a solution hasn't really thought this problem through.
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If that's what the Israelis have done, and it has worked - and I'm pretty sure it is, since the late 1970s - I'd say it is ONE possible solution, that has worked, and thus seems to have been thought through already ... about 30 years ago.

Given that all you've said is that solving the problem is impossible, and you've offered no proposed solution - in fact, you "don't see anyway to reverse this trend" - it seems you haven't really thought this problem through. Meanwhile, we have shootings in which people are injured or killed.

Time machines don't exist; you can't go back to the past. It's been said that "A grown man knows the world in which he lives." We have the world that we have. It is what it is. The question is what sort of world do we want for tomorrow. Rather than wring my hands while bemoaning the moral decline of our country and seeing nothing but hopelessness ahead for all eternity, and rather than surrender my rights and make things worse, I'm willing to try something that has apparently worked in similar conditions for three decades.
 
WhyteP38,

The solution of the problem is to bring morality and personal responsibility back into our communities. Eliminate two-job households. Parents need to spend less time working and more time parenting. If a parent spends more time with the kids, they can see problems as they develop, rather than waiting til one of their kids pull a Columbine. This is the only solution. But no one wants to do that.

I am all for arming teachers, but all that will do is potentially reduce the body count when some kid goes postal. It doesn't solve the problem. The problem has already occurred (and innocents are already dead) when the teacher reacts to it.

The problem the Israelis had was Palestinian terrorists. These people are outside their community. Our problem is caused by our own moral, social, and familial decay.

How exactly do you think arming teachers prevents school shootings?
 
The solution of the problem is to bring morality and personal responsibility back into our communities. Eliminate two-job households. Parents need to spend less time working and more time parenting. If a parent spends more time with the kids, they can see problems as they develop, rather than waiting til one of their kids pull a Columbine. This is the only solution. But no one wants to do that.
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The problem with your argument is that it is self-defeating. You've already stated at least twice that your "solution" is impossible. A solution that is impossible is not a solution. So you still haven't offered a solution.
I am all for arming teachers, but all that will do is potentially reduce the body count when some kid goes postal. It doesn't solve the problem. The problem has already occurred (and innocents are already dead) when the teacher reacts to it. <snip> How exactly do you think arming teachers prevents school shootings?
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Predators of all types generally avoid victims who can fight back. Lions don't attack the strongest zebras in the herd. Rapists generally don't attack women who they suspect will fight back. These shootings generally don't happen at the homes of their child victims, where the parents might put up a fight. Somehow, mentally disturbed adults, young adults, and kids manage to find the location most vulnerable to these attacks, and I doubt that is by accident. If those same places are no longer the most vulnerable, I'm guessing you'll see fewer shootings.
The problem the Israelis had was Palestinian terrorists. These people are outside their community. Our problem is caused by our own moral, social, and familial decay.
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A predatory mindset is a predatory mindset. Again, mentally disturbed adults, young adults, and kids manage to find the location most vulnerable to these attacks, and I doubt that is by accident.
 
You didn't answer the question I asked:

How exactly do you think arming teachers prevents school shootings?

If you are trying to prevent school shootings you will have to dig deeper than just arming teachers.

The only answer is to change the way we raise our children, which is probably impossible as I have stated given the state of affairs domestically in our country. Maybe the problem can't be "solved" and instead only "controlled" in which case arming teachers is as good of an idea as any.
 
I answered your question:
If those same places are no longer the most vulnerable, I'm guessing you'll see fewer shootings.
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If teachers are armed, schools are no longer among the most vulnerable places in our society. Predators will tend to stay away, just as they currently do for less vulnerable places in our society.

If you're seeking a perfect solution, good luck. I haven't found perfect solutions for anything.
 
Do you really think its any more likely that you will get teachers armed in the classroom than you can repair the American family?

Try selling guns in school to the American public. I would say your solution is no more practical than mine.
 
I think we've hit on some of the causes.

pitz96 said:
You are right about bullying being a major cause of school shootings, and of fights in general. Eliminating it will be hard, of course, as it seems to be pretty natural for some kids to bully, and natural for victims to want revenge.
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Let's remember that teens are at that "awkward" age where hormones and emotions are raging; they're between the stages of their lives where they are a "child" yet they feel as though they could make it on their own; some have to shoulder responsibility for adult behaviors such as watching a younger sibling, yet are not allowed adult privlieges. The frustration levels can build tremendously and result in poor behaviors to rebel against authority.

Bullying has been mentioned in several of the school shootings where the shooters were victims. Thus, we need some remedial steps to prevent bullying from becoming chronic and to enforce school discipline.
1. Train counselors to deal with bullying victims.
2. Identify and discipline repetitive school bullies.
3. Notify parents when their kids are ID'd as a bully.
4. Notify parents when their kids are victims of bullying.
5. Repetitive bullying is a suspension offense for the bullies.
6. Continuing bullying after a suspension gets explusion for the year AND he has to repeat the grade level.

It used to be that kids could talk to their parents about such things and get advice. That advice may have been "stand up and fight 'em" from Dad, or it may be "tell a teacher" from Mom. But at least the parents were aware of the problem and could talk to the school about it too.

Parental involvement is another area. As noted, some parents are working 50+ hours a week and the kids barely have contact with them. There's no chance for those "Leave it to Beaver" father-son/mother-daughter talks about bullying, frustrations or guidance in emotional issues. Parents do need to get involved when these things happen and let the school know. But school officials need to be discrete about the identity of the victim. I know one case where loose-lipped officials told the parents who told the student...who of course tried to extract revenge off-campus. That's not acceptable either.

Prescription Drugs - Several shootings have also implicated prescription drugs like Ritalin, Lithium and other "anti-depressants", mostly when the doses are stopped. First and foremost, these should only be prescribed by a medical doctor and evaluations performed every 3-4 months or less. Secondly, parents must be responsible for monitoring usage so they know the kids aren't suddenly stopping the drug and prone to "episodes". Lastly, under no circumstances should schools put parents in a position of drugging their kids to continue in school. A court might do that, but not a school bureaucrat.

Thanks for reading. Your opinion may vary. Not legal advice. Void where prohibited by law.
 
Do you really think its any more likely that you will get teachers armed in the classroom than you can repair the American family?
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I'm not trying to repair the American family. I'm responding to the topic: School Shootings In General - What is the solution? Fixing the American family structure is not the topic, and according to you it's not the solution because it's impossible. A solution remedies a problem; impossible doesn't remedy anything.

I agree the American family structure needs repair. The present damaged structure causes a host of problems, not just shootings in schools. Which makes it a much, much bigger problem to fix than shootings in schools. In the meantime, I see no reason to allow a few to slaughter many and to destroy the rights of all.

In your previous statements, you said a solution is impossible. So while you're waiting for the impossible to happen, what do you suggest we do in the meantime? You have consistently refused to say. I can only suppose that you intend to simply endure and let the shootings go unchallenged.
Try selling guns in school to the American public. I would say your solution is no more practical than mine.
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I've seen a lot of posts similar to mine. In fact, I first learned of the Israeli solution shortly after the Va. Tech. incident.
 
I think people are barking up the wrong tree here. The cause of school shootings isn't the downfall of the family unit. There have been function and dysfunctional families as long as there have been families. Child neglect didn't start in the last decade.

The cause isn't the proliferation of guns either. Guns have been part of our households for centuries now.

The cause of school shootings as we experience them today is population density. My grandparents went to one-room schoolhouses that had between 5 and 20 pupils total. The concept of a "school shooting" on the scale that we have them today was not a possibility in such a context.

Did underdogs shoot the bullies that bullied them? Don't you doubt it. People have gotten revenge since the idea began. But the context for revenge was smaller and more local.

Since we can't undo population density, there is no solution to the root cause. That leaves amelioration of symptoms. We can't cure the common cold, but we can help you feel better while you heal. By this measure, the "arm the teachers" camp can at least make a good case. They can point to a practical measure that appears to have tangible success.

Now many teachers are liberals, and they aren't going to enjoy being armed. Some would object to being asked to wear a gun as much as the CCW carriers on this forum object to being disarmed. Fine, I say. Offer an incentive instead. Some teachers have the temperament and discipline to be trained and carry a weapon. Pay for their training and and offer them a 5% bonus in pay in return for their agreement to carry as part of their employment.
 
I agree with you in parts, and respectfully disagree in others.
I think people are barking up the wrong tree here. The cause of school shootings isn't the downfall of the family unit. There have been function and dysfunctional families as long as there have been families. Child neglect didn't start in the last decade.

The cause isn't the proliferation of guns either. Guns have been part of our households for centuries now.
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+1. Reminds me of a liberal friend who told me the Islamofascists are killing us and becoming suicide bombers because they don't have jobs and don't have economic futures. (Somehow, it was our fault, although anytime something good happens in the world it's never because of the U.S.) In turn, I reminded him of a little blip in human history called The Great Depression, which for some reason didn't mass-produce suicide bombers. I'm sure someone will try to link The Great Depression with WWII, but that was mostly due to an aberation known as Hitler. Also, The Great Depression isn't the only depression we've faced that didn't produce suicide bombers.
Now many teachers are liberals, and they aren't going to enjoy being armed. Some would object to being asked to wear a gun as much as the CCW carriers on this forum object to being disarmed. Fine, I say. Offer an incentive instead. Some teachers have the temperament and discipline to be trained and carry a weapon. Pay for their training and and offer them a 5% bonus in pay in return for their agreement to carry as part of their employment.
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That's what I used to think until recently. I agree that probably most college professors are liberals, but I've met a surprising number of conservative and libertarian grade and high school teachers.
 
Quote:
How exactly do you think arming teachers prevents school shootings?

The same way crime is reduced when law abiding citizens are allowed to own firearms. Those areas with "heavy" anti-gun laws almost always experience higher crime rates. When laws like concealed carry are enacted they almost always reduce the crime rate.

Arming teachers creates a deterrent to the cowardly acts of armed children shooting other unarmed children.

I also disagree that the American public would never go for it. Rabid anti-gun Sen. Boxer of California went on record supporting the arming of pilots to thwart terrorist attacks. It isn't a stretch to see the same type of reasoning coming into play with arming teachers to prevent the cowardly acts of armed children killing unarmed children.

As to the family problems. I agree. Until that problem is solved, (i.e., in the meantime), unarmed children must be protected in a real world way. Not some "feelie, touchy" kind of way. Arming teachers is a real world way of protecting unarmed children IMHO.

It may not work all the time but it's better than nothing IMHO. And that's just what the modern, liberal educational system has done to address this problem - NOTHING!

Whyte put it about as good as I could ever explain it. If you don't agree with him, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
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I am not sure that armed teachers would be a deterrent for the type of school shootings that make the news. For example, I doubt Columbine or VT murderers would have been deterred. These school massacres were carried out by people who had no fear of being killed. They were either suicidal, or knew they would be killed by police. If they would be deterred by the threat of death, then threat was already there from the police.

And before a teacher could shoot a student, the student would have had plenty of time to kill a magazine or two of school kids.

Armed teachers are a way to deal with the problem after it is already in progress, but it is not a cure. It just limits the body count. This is good, and I support arming teachers, but its not a cure, its a treatment.
 
I am not sure that armed teachers would be a deterrent for the type of school shootings that make the news. For example, I doubt Columbine or VT murderers would have been deterred.
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It is not about deterring...it is about being able to react before they cause too much harm to a bunch of defenseless sheep.

We can talk about prevention, but nothing will ever work to fully prevent these things from happening. All we can do is prepare to react more quickly. Teachers are the one of the first line of defenses in a school attack. We can let them rampage and run rampant through the schools able to kill whomever they want...or we can create a roadblock of armed, trained and willing individuals (teachers) ready to prevent further murder.
 
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